Genealogy Chat

However this could be him in 1881, which means he's not Shirley's Henry.

1881 England Census
Name: Henry Williams
Age: 30
Estimated birth year: abt 1851
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Ellen
Gender: Male
Where born: Bath
Civil parish: Islington
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address: 156 Bannbury Rd
Condition as to marriage: Married

Occupation: Upholsterer

Registration district: Islington
Sub-registration district: Islington West
ED, institution, or vessel: 12
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Henry Williams 30
Ellen Williams 32
Edith Williams 8
Frederick Rous 30

And again in 1871. He's not a tailor, but an upholsterer.


1871 England Census
Name: Henry Williams
Age: 21
Estimated birth year: abt 1850
Relation: Son
Father's Name: William L
Mother's Name: Bridgett
Gender: Male
Where born: Bath St Michael, Somerset, England
Civil parish: St Michael
Ecclesiastical parish: St Michael
Town: Bath
County/Island: Somerset
Country: England
Street Address: Upper Borough Walls/Wells[?]

Occupation: upholsterer

Registration district: Bath
Sub-registration district: Abbey
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Household schedule number: 43
Household Members:
Name Age
William L Williams 65
Bridgett Williams 55 - Chadstock, Dorset
Lewis Williams 26 - tailor; Kilmersdon, Somerset
Henry Williams 21
Frank Williams 19 - tailor
William Williams 15 - upholsterer
Edward Williams 10 - scholar
Children all born Bathwick, Bath, Somerset.

Marriages Mar 1849
Bird John Bath 11 6
Bowbeer Mary Ann Bath 11 6
England Ellinor Bath 11 6
Lewis Philip Bath 11 6
Manning Nicholas Bath 11 6
Stinnard Mary Bath 11 6
Turner Bridget Bath 11 6 <<<<<<<<<<<
Williams William Lewis Bath 11 6 <<<<<

No, this is very frustrating. I've been working on & off on this family today & they're doing my head in, as the saying goes!

Henry in 1891 & 1901 worries me. There's a big age difference, his occupation changes and he's born in Bath one census, and Cheltenham the next. I'm sure Rose and the children are the same. I just can't figure out the Henrys.

I've found a Henry Williams born Bath with a father who's a tailor in 1861.

1861 England Census
Name: Henry William
Age: 11
Estimated birth year: abt 1850
Relation: Son
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Bridge
Gender: Male
Where born: Bath, Somerset, England
Civil parish: Bathwick
County/Island: Somerset
Country: England
Street Address: 25 Villa Fields

Occupation: scholar

Registration district: Bath
Sub-registration district: Bathwick
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 121
Household Members:
Name Age
William William 51 - tailor; Bath
Bridge William 46 - Chardstock, Dorset [I think]
Henry William 11
Frank William 8
William William 5
Edward Williams 1
Richard Turner 72 - Relation; V?, Dorset
Children born Bath.



Ozi

Ozibird, No, not loads of William Rufuses, but loads of William R's and load of Rufus Williams. \Perhaps not the right age, but I didn't get to that stage.

Your 1891 census seems to be the same family as in 1901, and possibly 1911.

But it doesn't lead us to William Rufus Williams does it?

Here's 1891 for you, just in case you haven't seen it.

1891 Wales Census
Name: Henry William
Age: 42
Estimated birth year: abt 1849
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Rose
Gender: Male
Where born: Bath, Somerset, England
Civil parish: Canton
Ecclesiastical parish: Canton
Town: Cardiff
County/Island: Glamorgan
Country: Wales
Street Address: 16 Eldon Rd

Occupation: Journeyman

Registration district: Cardiff
Sub-registration district: Cardiff
ED, institution, or vessel: 39b
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Henry William 42
Rose William 24 - tailoress; Bath
Maud William 5 - Bristol
Beatrice William 3 - Cardiff
Stella William 1/12 - Cardiff
Sarah William 14 - sister, Bristol

Here Henry is recorded as a journeyman which means he has to be a skilled artisan of some kind. As Rose is a tailoress, he being a tailor is quite plausible.

This has got to be the same family, but look at the age difference of Henry.

You say there are bucketfuls of William Rufus Williams in Wales. There are container-ship loads of William Williams, but not one William Rufus, and the only bmd entry is his birth in 1900.

Ozi

If we look at Maureen's 1901 census, William has four sisters, and a brother Bert. Might Jack be wrong in thinking it was his dad's cousin?

But I'm still at a loss as to this difference between Jack's father's birth and marriage certificates. I would guess that the birth certificate is more reliable than the marriage certificate, but then we can't find a William with a son William.

Maybe somebody else will spot something.

Hi yes Jack as his own birth cert with his Fathers Name as William rufus Williams and Mother Ada Scott
Now to make thing Harder Jack Said His father Had 3 Sisters Names Unnone to jack
he sure one of the sisters went to Canada
and his father Had A cousin Bert
Regards Angela
I would like to say thank you for all the Help you are all Giving me
on this family

What do you mean by "the William Rufus Williams on his birth certificate is Jack's father's father"?

I did ask if your Jack had his own birth certificate to prove that his parents were William Rufus Williams and Ada SCott.

Does he have that? In which case he will know whether or not he was born in 1930 or in 1933.

If he doesn't have that, then we could be just guessing.

Margaret

Hi Ozibird
Yes Jack was born 1930 or 1933
he knows his father was william Rufus William Born 28/01/ 1900
and died 1962
jack was born in Bristol England
now jack told me tonight that His Father William Rufus William Run away in the Army Becouse His Father Died (so the William Rufus Williams on His Birth Cert Hi Jack Father's Father . That died Befor 1915 )
now jack said the rest of the William RufusWilliams and Rose's Family went to Diffrent places to live like Neighbours and relatives
so at a guess i would say that when Jacks Father Can out of the Army he went to live with A relative on His mother or Father Side and i think thats were Henry George Williams comes in Place . or was it Rose Williams Father Named Henry George William and Her Brother ?? thats on the marriage cert

I'm thinking aloud.

Your friend is Jack Williams. His parents were William Rufus Williams and Ada Scott. Does he have his birth certificate to prove this? Where was he born? Bristol or Wales?

If his parents are the William Rufus Williams and Ada Scott we are looking at, born 1900, your friend is presumably quite elderly.

Can you confirm this please?

Interesting. It's possible he was already ill in 1901 and no longer able to do skilled work - eyesight giving out or something?


Ozi

Ozibird the father is a Tailor. That doesn't tie in with the 1901 or possible 1911 census, but Rose in 1901 was a tailoress.

I'd never heard of Canton or Grangetown, so seems a more Welsh bent than we imagined. Well, not suprising with two parents named Williams!

Now if we move into Wales, there are buckets of William Rufus Williams, it opens up a whole new ball park!

Margaret

Just in case you're searching for elder siblings and don't know the area..

Canton (Welsh: Treganna) is an inner-city district in the west of Cardiff
Grangetown (Welsh: Trelluest) is an area in the west of Cardiff - borders Canton


Although I think the 1901 that Maureen found is spot on. Does the marriage cert happen to give father's occupation or is he just deceased?

Births Mar 1901
Williams Winifred Rose Bristol 6a 46
Winifred is 2 months old on 1901 census and this is the only registration for that time.

Ozi

Oh, Maureen, I am SO stupid. His father is deceased, so he can hardly witness the marriage.

So the witness could be the brother of William Rufus, or perhaps an uncle, and maybe the registrar recorded the witness as the father in error.

Crikey.

It would greatly help if we could find another William b 1900 on the census with a father William and mother Rose. But so far I can't.

Jack thinks his grandfather died about 1915. I can't find a suitable death in Bristol, only in Cardiff.

I'm getting out of ideas now.

er- I was thinking that the witness was the brother.

Henry G
Maureen

Forgot to add, the witness probably IS the father after all.

Does Jack remember his grandad having any siblings? He might remember Elsie if you jog his memory.

Ah, okay, I have the picture now, thanks and sorry to be such a noddy.

I'm afraid I can't help much. In 1911 the best I can find is George Williams 48, with Willie 11 and Elsie 8. George is a Widower born Cheltenham and is a General Labourer, as in 1901 that Maureen found. There is a death of Rose Williams in Sep 1910 (also one in 1904 but she looks too old). There is also a baby died around the same time, so she might have died in childbirth.

I am at a loss to explain the father being William Rufus Williams unless the Registrar made a mistake. It's a pity those records were lost in WW1. It might be worth asking the GRO to check again, they may have ways and means.

George Henry Williams
Year of Registration: 1863
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Cheltenham
County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 6a
Page: 377 (click to see others on page)

But there are several other possibilities.

We need the marriage of Rose Williams.

Possible?

Williams Henry Cardiff 11a 402 Sep 1886
Williams Rose Cardiff 11a 402

Nothing any better, though she says she is from Bath, but Beatrice is born in Cardiff.

i will start With My friend Jack he his the Son of William Rusfus and Ada Scott
Jack he whanted to know who his granparnts was .He was told His Granfather Died beetween the Years of 1900 1915
Now he had no name for His Granparents the only Name He had His His mother Ada Scott Born in Bristol He thinks DOB 08/02/1900 date of death may 1986

And the Name Of His own father William Rufus Williams DOB 28/01/1900 Date of Death 1962 Bristol
Born in bristol
So Ada And William Rufus Williams are Jacks Mum and Dad
so i orderd Wiliam Rufus Williams Brith Cert at Bristol Reg Office
But they Said all 1900 records were Burn by a fire in the www1 war
So i sent for it on line GRO
So i orderd William Rusfus Williams And Ada Scotts Marriage Cert ( jacks Parents }
at Bristol Reg office
Now i have Ada And William Rufus Williams Marriage cert

i will leave Ada scott detail out for now

William Rufus Williams (jacks Dad ) Age 22
His Father is Down As Henry George WilliamsDeceased
( Thats William Rufus Williams Father Down As Henry )
Now the witness on the Marriage Cert was henry George Williams and Emma Scott

so you would Think the Granparents for Jack is Henry George Williams ( Deceased )
But When the birth Cert can for william Rufus Williams (Jacks Dad )
DOB 28/01/1900
Parents are Rose williams formerly Williams & William Rufus Williams
so it is really confusing
Regards Angela

Angela I am getting even slower.

So, am I right in this?

Your friend said his grandfather was William Rufus Williams, and his grandmother was Ada Scott. Presumably he knew roughly when they married and where? That was Bedminster, Bristol, I know it well.

How sure was he that his grandmother was Ada Scott? Did he just know her name as Ada and not her surname? Possible.

But the certificate you got did not have the name Rufus on it. It was a certiificate for William Williams (or was it William R Williams as you say in your thread?) and Ada Scott, his father being Henry George Williams (deceased).

Your earlier post on this thread said

Thats my Friends Father so i have his mothers name as well on the marriage cert. A mother's name is not shown on a marriage cert. So I don't understand what you mean. How did you have his mother's name?

You then sent for a birth cert of William Williams (not William Rufus Williams), and that came back with his father as being William Rufus Williams? So your friend's grandfather might not have had Rufus in his name, but his father did? And his mother was Rose Williams (very inconsiderate!).

So now we have a conflict. The marriage cert you have of William Williams says his father is Henry George, but the birth certificate you have says his father is William Rufus.

Well, one is wrong.

It is possible there was a William Rufus in the family, and your friend has assumed this is her grandfather.

I just don't want you to go down the wrong track because of things that might be obvious.

So can we start with your friend.

Does he have his own birth or marriage certificate? That will show his father at least, and if a birth cert, it will show his mother too.

Who are his parents? (If they are still alive, send me a private message on that, and I will let the people here have what they need to know to help).

Assuming his father is somebody Williams, does he then have the marriage certificate of his parents, OR the birth certificate of his father (even better). If not, that is the next thing to get. One of these, whichever he is most sure about.

If he already has them, can we please know who his father was, according to that certificate.

Then we can start to move on.

Something isn't right Angela, so we must take it one step at a time.

Margaret