Genealogy Chat

Not trying to find him, I know where he went, or at least have been told so.

Born Macclesfield, Cheshire, middle son of John Ryle, wealthy silk dyer (not the silk manufacturer who was even more famous), and Mary Nixon. He would have likely been educated and groomed to take over the family business in conjunction with his two brothers. When his father died in 1808, the eldest son had predeceased him, Joshua the youngest son had been banished to Croydon, Surrey for marrying beneath him, so middle son John inherited the wealth. He built up the business, branching out into banking, but sadly he made a bad business decision in 1841 and lost the lot - so I am not after the money!

Ryle seems to be interchangeable with Royle and other occasional variations, e.g. Ryall.

What I do know is that Joshua lands in Croydon with a wife Jane, with whom he has 5 children between 1814 (EDIT - first child Joshua 1812) and 1818. IGI tells me that. National Archives also tells me of business transactions carried out between Joshua Ryle of Croydon and John Ryle of Macclesfield. Not that I can find a marriage of Joshua and Jane. But a fellow researcher tells me Joshua Royle married Jannot Farrish at Manchester Cathedral in 1808, and indeed there is such a marriage on IGI. But I have contacted the Cathedral and they tell me that this Joshua was a cabinet maker. It doesn't seem likely for a chap being groomed to take over a silk dying business and several country estates. Also, I can find a suitable birth of a possible alternative Joshua Royle in Manchester.

He definitely appears with a Jane in Croydon, and I am told (by aa SOG member) they both die there before 1841, named Joshua and Janet.

So was Janet the person he married who was beneath him? If so, that cuts me out of the scene.

Next issue is that the marriage in Manchester was 11 December 1808. Joshua's father died some time in 1808. I cannot find a date. Unless he died after 11 December, he would not have known of his son's poor marriage. But then was the marriage to Jannot (if indeed that was who his son married) beneath him?

EDIT - his father died on 16 June 1808.

I do know that my husband's ggg grandmother was Rachel Ryle (Royle) b 1812 Macclesfield, parents Josh. Ryle (Royle) and Rachel. Josh. could be Joshua or Joseph. They appear to have had no other children. That is an extracted record. IGI has two submitted records for a marriage of a Joseph Royle (could be their misinterpretation of Josh) and Rachel Brazier in 1805. That is a bit early to have a child in 1812, but hey-ho so is the marriage of the Joshua in Manchester in 1808 to have had his first child in 1814 down in Croydon.

I've suggested divorce but am told that even for a wealthy family it was virtually impossible then. I even mooted bigamy, but the family was a good, upright, solid family unlikely to do such a thing. Or perhaps he didn't marry Rachel Brazier at all, just had a child out of wedlock with her. After he had married Jannot?

I don't expect you to research folks, unless you get the urge. Some of this info has been provided to me by members of the Ryle family and members of the Society of Genealogists. I am asking for ideas as to where to look next, cos I have got none.

This is important, as if I can prove a connection with the Ryle dyers I open up a whole load of connections with famous people.

Perhaps I should approach Who do you Think You Are?

Margaret

First thought that popped into my head was, maybe he worked as a cabinet maker because his dad wouldn't give him any money during his (the father's) lifetime so he needed a trade etc to get by on in the interim period? If he was in disgrace with his father, perhaps he came to that trade because he never imagined that he would be in favour enough to be remembered in the will.

Also, if Joshua was a younger son, maybe his dad didn't anticipated him taking over the family trade/business and so trained up an elder son instead. If this older son died, perhaps Joshua was the only one in a position to do so? Maybe it was easier for him to give up his usual job than for his brothers (or brothers-in-law) to give up theirs?

I think Janet, Jenny and Jane could be a bit interchangeable - I know in Jane Eyre, Mr. Rochester sometimes refers to her as "Janet" although her given name appears to be simply Jane.

With the gaps between possible marriages and possible children, could it be that he moved around a bit - like a travelling cabinet maker, going from place to place to get work - and that he had some other children during that period in places you wouldn't expect them to be born in? If he had a growing family to support maybe his only option was to go wherever the work was?

Sounds a good one to work out ...

Just a quick note - don't forget Josiah as another possible misinterpretation. I have a Josiah who often shows as Joseph.

Jill

There are some wills here which may be relevant

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/wills.asp?WT.hp=Wills

Hi all

See my edit - his father died 6 months before the supposed marriage in Manchester to someone beneath him, so it could not have been that marriage that caused him to be despatched south (historians say he was banished before his father died).

Kate, I doubt he was totally disinherited - there are records of him buying the lease of a country estate in Carshalton, and later the freehold, and his sons were described as "gentlemen".

Jill, I hadn't though of Josiah, but nothing shows up for that.

Thanks Ann, I have looked at the wills. There is nothing for his father, but Joshua's own will is there (1828) leaving everything to his brother John.

Of course, the historians could be wrong, which is why I am trying to piece together my own picture.

Many thanks

Margaret

You'd have thought the father would have left a will. Is it held locally?

Perhaps you've already looked but there are Cheshire Wills here

http://www.cheshire.gov.uk/Recordoffice/Wills/

Another idea worth looking at is death duty registers which may tell you details of who benefitted from an estate, giving family relationships - often annotated for a number of years.

Ann, I had forgotten Cheshire wills, but have used it previously - there is nothing at all for John, though there is one for his father. I do know that John died very suddenly and wills are often drawn up as a person is dying, so perhaps there wasn't time. But should there not have been letters of admin? I can find nothing.

A reference in a book by John's grandson John Charles Ryle says something like "as his elder son (Thomas) was dead and his younger son (Joshua) had been disowned by the family, there was little argument that John (middle son) should inherit", implying that there was no will.

Where would I find death duty registers?

Margaret

Dear all

I've now looked at death duties on National Archives - nothing.

So I've contacted York and will have to pay £15 for them to search for me.

Thanks for the ideas so far.

What I will still need though is some idea as to how to "prove" that my Rachel Ryle/Royle is the daughter of this Joshua, son of John.

Forgot to say that Rachel is described as a nurse in 1871 (not before nor after), in 1881 there is a nurse Emma Hutching, married, age 36, born Exeter, living with the family. I wondered if the Ryles had paid for her, or whether she was just a lodger. Tried tracing her without success.

Margaret

The death duty index is on FMP I believe, but the actual registers are at the National Archives.

In Jacksons Oxford Journal there are marriages of 3 children of a Joshua Ryle Esq of Carshalton - eldest daughter Mary in Dec 1835, Clara, youngest dau in Aug 1842 and youngest son Thomas in July 1853.

Hi Ann

Can't see death duties on FMP, can you advise? I have a full subscription. But National Archives online produced nothing.

You are opening up a whole new world of research resources to me Ann - what is Jackson's Oxford Journal? How do I access it and find these marriages?

Thanks so much for your interest and help, it is really valued.

Margaret

I haven't got a subscription to fmp so can't check for you, but if you click on Births Marraiges and Deaths at the top of the homepage, then scroll down through the various Deaths databases, you'll see the Death Duty Registers.

I searched the 19th century Newspaper database which is available on the Lancashire Libraries website. You have to join the library - doesn't matter that you might not live in Lancs, I don't!

Ann

Nope, nothing on FMP. I found the method you suggested, which was right, but did nothing for me. A bit complicated so I might go back and have another try.

But thanks so much for the library tip. I was given this info a while ago about accessing newspapers online, never used it, but discovered I can get into it via Derbyshire County Council and my own library card - and there are the 3 marriages you stated!!!!!

Did you do that for me? Thank you so much. I had fought with Thomas Ryle possibly marrying Jane Russell for about a year, but this has confirmed it.

Any more gems of imagination? You have been such a brilliant help, thank you so much. I am at last getting a picture of Joshua Ryle and his Surrey life.

Just need that Macclesfield link.

Margaret

I am wondering whether the fmp index is complete as someone else couldn't find an entry there either, although not all estates were liable for death duty.

Glad you managed to look at the papers!

Will have a think about any other possibilities.

Another little snippet - Jane, wife of Joshua Ryle esq, died age 35 in Croydon in 1821

http://www.archive.org/stream/monthlymagazineo51lond#page/290/mode/2up

I'm still not good at this, can't find the 3 marriages I found yesterday.

How did you find Jane's death? It is correct, and I found it elsewhere, 23 Feb 1821. From the short obituary it certainly doesn't look as though she was the cause of Joshua being disowned - "she was the object of esteem and regard to her numerous friends and relatives".

Also Joshua's death found, 14 May 1828.

And lots of articles re John Ryle's bankruptcy etc.

Margaret

To find the 3 marraiges, just put the surname into the search box for the 19th Century newspapers database on the library site.

I noted the details down, so let me know if you need them.

Think I found Janes death on Google books in the end! I would imagine there'd be a gravestone for her, wherever she was buried! Perhaps that would give some of her family info?

Found them now, must have done something wrong.

Burials Janet 1/3/1821, Joshua 21/5/1828, St John the Baptist, Croydon.

Margaret

Have any MI's been recorded for this cemetery do you know?