Genealogy Chat

Hi All :-)

My brick wall within the census is the following - still scratch my head when ever I reread it.

1871 England Census
about Charles Lee
Name: Charles Lee
Age: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1849
Relation: Son
Mother's Name: Ann
Gender: Male
Where born: Newington, Surrey, England
Civil parish: St Mary Newington
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: St Saviour Southwark
Sub-registration district: St Peter Walworth
ED, institution, or vessel: 30
Household Members: Name Age
Ann Lee 26 - Head
Charles Lee 22 - Son
Edward Lee 1 - Grandson
Sarah Lee 23 - Daughter


Take a look at the original census taking....the enumerator must have had a rum or 3 on there house to house calls....the child Edward is my Great Grandfather - Charles was his father going by Edwards marriage certificate of 1889 [on the certificate he is written as being a Stone Mason and not a Hawker – gilding the lily a fraction] .Anybody who can make out this household deserves an award. Especially Making out who Ann is has me especially puzzled. ;-)

Any thoughts would be most welcome :-)

Cheers - Steve.

This looks like an Ancestry Census..................perhaps someone with access to FMP could help ?

Hi Alan :-)

Excuse my ignorance - What is FMP?

Cheers - Steve.

hi this is what i found on here
1871 census

Name Charles Lee
Age 22
Estimated Year of Birth 1849
Relationship to Head of Household SON
Occupation HAWKER
Address 14 LITTLE PARK PLACE
District St Saviour Southwark, St Peter Walworth
Parish
Administrative County London
Birth Place Newington
Birth County SURREY
in house
ann lee head widow 25
charles son 22
edward grandson 1
sarah daughter married 23

anns details from 1871
1871 census

Name Ann Lee
Age 26
Estimated Year of Birth 1845
Relationship to Head of Household HEAD
Occupation HAWKER
Address 14 LITTLE PARK PLACE
District St Saviour Southwark, St Peter Walworth
Parish
Administrative County London
Birth Place Halton
Birth County HAMPSHIRE

Hi Polly :-)

My confusion is that Ann Lee b:1845 is Head of the Household and is Widowed which is straight forward but her supposed children Charles Lee b:1849 & Sarah Lee b:1848 are only 5 or so years younger in age? This doesn't make sense at all....I have looked at the image many times - nothing gels.

Cheers - Steve.

Are you sure its the right Charles Lee? Its a common name. Did he marry? Who did he marry? Have you got his fathers name?

hi steve i have looked for the family before and after 1871 but cant find any trace i thought maybe they had made an error with her date of birth

1861: Ann shown born Hampshire, Hunton. Dad John is a gardener from Kent.


Name: Ann Lee
Age: 42
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1819
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: John
Gender: Female
Where born: Hunton, Hampshire, England

Name: Charles Lee
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1849
Relation: Son
Father's Name: John
Mother's Name: Ann
Gender: Male
Where born: Brixton, Surrey, England

Civil parish: Lambeth
Ecclesiastical parish: St Matthew
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England



Registration district: Lambeth
Sub-registration district: Brixton
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 172
Household Members:
Name Age
John Lee 40
Ann Lee 42
Charles Lee 12
Sarah Lee 5
Emma Lee 1

Same lot in 1851 Dad is a coachman.

Name: Charles Lee
Age: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1849
Relation: Son
Father's Name: John
Mother's Name: Ann
Gender: Male
Where born: Barton, Surrey, England

Civil parish: Lambeth
Ecclesiastical parish: Brixton
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England

Street Address:




Registration district: Lambeth
Sub-registration district: Brixton
ED, institution, or vessel: 12
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 172
Household Members:
Name Age
John Lee 30
Ann Lee 32
Charles Lee 2
John H Lee 10 Mo
Ann Mundy 22
Maria E Mundy 1
Maria Mundy 34

Looks like Anns rellie visiting:

Name: Maria Mundy
Age: 34
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1817
Relation: Visitor
Gender: Female
Where born: Hunton, Hampshire, England

Civil parish: Lambeth
Ecclesiastical parish: Brixton
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England

Hi Heather :-)

Long story - Short.

Edward Lee b:c1868 is a mystery. He always had his birth place as Surrey London. He can be found in the Ardwick Industrial School in 1881. He married Emily Oliver in 1889. Always born in Surrey or just London on the Census entries from 1891 - 1901. But it is the 1911 Census that beared fruit in that he has written he was born in Walworth Surrey London.

Myself and my cousin have looked [well I've lost count how many times] - but this entry of 1871 is the only one that has an Edward as a child and Charles as father - no other census entry comes this close to a possibility.....sadly no mother is mention on Edwards marriage certif of 1889 - which leaves us with Edward lee whose father is Charles who was supposed to be a Stone Mason.

Cheers - Steve.

Have you seen the above census info? Ann born Hants 1819

So you dont have Edwards birth cert for his mothers name?

This looks like the only one born Newington right year:

Births Dec 1868

LEE Edward Newington 1d 215

You could buy the cert specifying fathers name Charles.

Looks like the marriage of John Lee and Ann:

Marriages Dec 1847
Case Robert Lambeth 4 263
Crowe Jane Edith Lambeth 4 263
HAMPSON Francis Lambeth 4 263
>>>LEE John Lambeth 4 263
>>>MUNDY Ann Lambeth 4 263
ROYLE Alice Susannah Lambeth 4 263
SEAGER Mary Ann Lambeth 4 263 Scan available - click to view
SMITH William Lambeth 4 263

Hi Heather :-)

Thanks Heather. I thought the same when I struck upon them in the census - but the below entry for the same family for 1871 makes them the wrong family :-(

1871 England Census
about Charles Lee
Name: Charles Lee
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848
Relation: Son
Mother's Name: Ann
Gender: Male
Where born: Brixton, Surrey, England
Civil parish: Lambeth St Mary
Ecclesiastical parish: St Matthew Brixton
Town: Brixton
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Registration district: Lambeth
Sub-registration district: Brixton
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Household schedule number: 215
Household Members: Name Age
Ann Lee 53
Charles Lee 23
Emma Lee 11
Rosa Nath 18


View
Original
Record

View original image

.........................................................................................................................

No success with finding him in the BMD'S - the closest one I ordered a few weeks back and it turned out to be wrong :-(

Cheers - Steve.

Hi Heather :-)

That is the certificate I ordered a few weeks back.

Edward Lee b:13th September 1868 at 9 Kings Arch Place.
Father: James Lee - Baker Journeyman.
Mother: Eliza Lee formerly Jefferies.

Edward Lee has been the main brick wall in my family tree - He still has us just as perplexed as the day we started seeking him out about 6 odd years back

Cheers - Steve.

Hi All :-)

It is getting very very late here [2:21am] and bed is calling me - YAWN.

Big thank you for your help Heather - Polly & Alan -> most appreciated.

Any further thoughts or suggestions most welcome. I will have a look-see at this thread after a good nights sleep - till then ;-)

Cheers - Steve - zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Cant really see why it would make it the wrong lot? Charles and Sarah are the right ages for the kids in the 1871. Ann is right name and born right place?

May be Im missing something, which wouldnt surprise me :)

Hi Steve

Suppose the Sarah Lee (23) is the wife of Charles - not the daughter of Ann.
(Charles Duncan Lee married Sarah Jane Bradshaw (they are on the same page anyway) Greenwich 1868.

That then leaves you with Ann in 1871 with her age wrong - could have been an error when the enumerator transcribed his notes.

Do you have her in 1881??

Peter

Hi All :-)

I think I should have explained myself better. In hindsight it was getting late when I added the original posting & looking at it today I feel I will expand on the information as it allows for greater understanding of what I am seeking.

Below is Edward Lee within all the Census taking from 1871 – 1911 [There are minor mistakes within the originals and I have rectified them for consistency e.g: Edward & Emily’s ‘first born child - daughter Beatrice is written as 48 years of age and logically was in fact 4 months – sadly she died the following year].

Heather. The reason why I dismissed the other LEE family is that Edward Lee was missing from the household. I totally agree that the family look to be the one. But the 1871 Census has no Edward present – this is why the below 1871 Census is the most likely…..unless anyone can find another?

Peter. I thought that this may also be possible – Charles & Sarah were in fact a couple and not siblings….it makes better sense and yes the enumerator stuffed up with Ann’s age dramatically…..the added mystery is where is this family [Ann & Charles] in the1851 & 1861 Census taking???

Edward Lee appears to be shoved into the Manchester Certified Industrial School in 1881 – Why and Where did his family suddenly vanish???

*1871 England Census.
Civil Parish: St Mary Newington.
Ecc Parish: All Saints.
County/Island: London.
Country: England.
Reg District: St Saviour Southwark.
Sub Reg District: St Peter Walworth.
Address: 14 Little Park Road.
Household Members:
Ann Lee aged 26 [?] - Head - Widow - Occupation: Hawker - Born: Hants [Hampshire] Halton.
Charles Lee aged 22 - Son - Occupation: Hawker - Born: Surrey Newington.
Edward Lee aged 1- Grand Son - Born: Newington - Surrey - London.
Sarah Lee aged 23 - Daughter [?] - Occupation: Charwoman - Born: Surrey Newington.

*1881 England Census.
Civil Parish: Ardwick.
County/Island: Lancashire.
Country: England.
Reg District: Chorlton.
Sub Reg District: Ardwick.
Institution/Address: Manchester Certified Industrial School.
Edward Lee aged 13 - Born: London - Surrey.

The following is the Marriage Details of Edward Lee & Emily Oliver in 1889.

*1889 Marriage Solminized at 'The Register Office' in the 'District' of 'Kings Norton' in the counties of ' Birmingham, Worcester, Warwick and Stafford'.
No: 200.
When Married: Fourteenth December 1889.
Name & Surname: Edward Lee aged 21 years of age - Condition: Bachelor - Occupation: Basket Maker - Residence at Time of Marriage: 177 Balsall Heath Road - Balsall Heath.
Father's Name & Surname: Charles Lee - Occupation: Stonemason.
Name & Surname: Emily Oliver aged 20 years of age [Note: Should be Written as Abt 17] - Condition: Spinster - Occupation: Mantle Maker - Residence at Time of Marriage: 177 Balsall Heath Road - Balsall Heath.
Father's Name & Surname: Mark Oliver - Occupation: Wheelright's Smith.
This Marriage was solemnized between us: Signed: Edward Lee & Emily Oliver.
Witnesses: Signed: George Cooke and Jane Cooke.
Married in the 'Register Office' by 'Certificate before me' - Signed: George Johns: Registrar.
Signed: George Theodore Newbury - Deputy Superintendent Registrar.



*1891 England Census.
Civil Parish: Gorton.
Ecc Parish: St Mark.
County/Island: Lancashire.
Country: England.
Reg District: Chorlton.
Sub Reg District: Ardwick.
Address: 10 Albert Place.
Household Members:
Mark Oliver aged 53 - Head - Occupation: Coach Smith - Born: Darlington Durham.
Sarah Oliver aged 46 - Wife - Born: Cheshire Wilmslow
Mark Oliver aged 22 - Son.
Joseph Oliver aged 10 - Son.
Edmund Samuel Bray Oliver [E T Oliver] aged 7 - Son.
Edward Lee aged 21- Son-in-Law - Occupation: Basket Maker - Born: London.
Emily Lee aged 20 - Daughter - Born: Lancashire Ardwick.
Beatrice Lee aged 4 Months - Grand Daughter - Born: Warwickshire Birmingham.

1901 England Census.
Civil Parish: South Manchester.
Ecc Parish: Gorton St Mark.
County/Island: Lancashire.
Country: England.
Reg District: Chorlton.
Sub Reg District: Ardwick.
Address: 5 Thomas Street.
Household Members:
Edward Lee aged 34 - Head - Occupation: Skip & Basket Maker - Born: London.
Emily Lee aged 29 - Wife - Born: Lancashire Manchester
Emily Lee aged 7 - Daughter - Born: Lancashire Manchester.
Florence V. Lee aged 3 - Daughter - Born: Lancashire Manchester.
Ethel Lee aged 1 - Daughter - Born: Lancashire Manchester.
Hannah Lee aged 3 Months - Daughter - Born: Lancashire Manchester.


*1911 England Census.
Address: 26 Hayfield Street - Chorlton - Ardwick - South Manchester.
Household Members:
Edward Lee - aged 42 - Head - Occupation:Basket Maker [Worker] - Born: London Walworth.
Emily Lee aged 39 - Wife - Born: Pendleton Lancashire.
[Edward & Emily had been married for 21 years - have had 11 children - 6 living - 5 had died].
Emily Lee aged 17 - Daughter - Single - Occupation: Box Maker [Worker] - Born: Manchester Lancashire.
Florence Victoria

Hi Steve.

Edward Lee occupation on his marriage cert basket maker suggests he was a gypsy.

Lee is gypsy name. His father occ given as stonemason. As you say he was probably taking liberties
I wonder if Edward got himself into a bit of bother so they put him into the Industrial school
His daughter Beatrice born c1891 Birmingham seems to be missing in 1901.death in 1892 Chorlton district

Hi Quinsgran :-)

Thank you for your thoughts.

It hadn't crossed my mind that Edward Lee may have had a gypsy background. His profession as a Basket Maker was as a Skip & basket Maker - not as I thought of as weaving baskets. My cousin enlightened me that it was a more industrial job that he probably learnt during his time at the Industrial School. Indeed he may have been a naughty boy and this is why he ended up there in 1881....the authorities had clamped down on wayward kids and parents not being law abiding and making sure they were in school.

The Lee family [that mostly stare back at me in very old photographs] - had olive skin - which is unusual - jet black hair....my older brother is the spitting image of Edward Lee. We possess one lovely photograph of him circa 1890. Tall - thin - dressed to the nines - but we believe it was a twin photo celebrating his marriage to Emily...sadly no similar photo exists of Emily during this time period.

I have skimmed over Gypsy backgrounds in the past....is there any good site on the web that I may be able to get a better understanding of there background....anything is a possibility I guess.

Cheers - Steve Campbell.

Hi :-)

Oh dear that will teach me to go into edit mode....I saw a typo - went to change it and the end part of my message [beginning of page 2] vanished - The end of the 1901 Census is the following ->

Emily Lee aged 17 - Daughter - Single - Occupation: Box Maker [Worker] - Born: Manchester Lancashire.
Florence Victoria Lee aged 13 - Daughter - At School - Born: Manchester Lancashire.
Ethel Lee aged 11 - Daughter - At School - Born: Manchester Lancashire.
Hannah Lee aged 10 - Daughter - At School - Born: Manchester Lancashire.
Mary Lee aged 6 - Daughter - Born: Manchester Lancashire.
Doris Lee aged 1 - Daughter - Born: Manchester Lancashire.
Signed: Edward Lee.
Postal Address: 26 Hayfield Street - Ardwick.

Thoughts.

Cheers - Steve Campbell.

Nudge for me :-)