Genealogy Chat

Thanks Ozibird. I shall now wait for the marriage cert to come through for Sarah Daisy and 'the brothers' perhaps then I shall have more idea where the Murrays were from......unless of course they lied !!!! Who knows?

Carol, I checked the military records on Ancestry. There are Stephen Murrays but none in RFA, & they all seem to come from Lancashire. The records are for 1914- 20 so too late for Patrick.

Medal cards don't give you any information other than they got a medal, & you know that for Stephen.
British Army WWI Medal Rolls Index Cards, 1914-1920
Name: Stephen Murray
Regiment or Corps: Royal Field Artillery
Regimental Number: 23860
Looking at the image I can only add that the theatre of war he received the medal for was France.


British Army WWI Pension Records 1914-1920
Name: Stephen Murray
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1876
Age at Enlistment: 41
Residence: 33 Stansfield St, Blackburn
Document Year: 1917

&

Name: Stephen Murray
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1878
Age at Enlistment: 37
Residence: 21 Hulme St, Bolton
Document Year: 1915
Regimental Number: 060877

&

Name: Stephen Murray
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1880
Age at Enlistment: 22
Birth Parish: Omay
Birth County: Galway
Document Year: 1902
Regimental Number: 8080

&

Name: Stephen Murray
Document Year: 1919
Regimental Number: 15017
Regimental Number: 113178
Occupation: Collier
Military Police

Thanks Erin I'll look into that. You really have been a great help with all this and I'm so grateful for all the assistance and pointing me in the right directions. I hadnt realised there were so many places to search.....it's getting more and more interesting thanks to folk like you

Carol...Not against Civil Law as far as I am aware but not permitted under Canon Law... but they may well have applied for and got a Dispensation...Have you thought to find any info.from the Church Records where she married Patrick, they can be much more informative than MCs.

ErinGo Bragh... I hear what you are saying about marrying two brothersbut she did it and was definitely RC but probably lapsed so maybe married in civil ceremony. I know its an unusual thing to do,(and possibly against the law?????) but she was quite a woman and very much loved by all seven of her children by the two brothers.

Carol...You may be able to get someone to look up his Military Record with his Number and Reg.
Just to add another point of "confusion" with Sarah Daisy and her marriages....If Patrick and Stephen were brothers then despite the fact Patrick died she would not have been able to marry ( RC Church) her
Bro.in law..cant say for other Denominations

ozibird .Your synopsis of all the information exactly what I have got now too, everything ties up and is without doubt correct .....EXCEPT for the Citadel Barracks as I cant find out if the RFA were stationed there in 1901.
I still have my doubts as to whether they are the same Stephen and Patrick because of the discrepency of their birthplace ie Patrick born in Ireland in 1901 and in London in 1911. Cant locate Stephen either in 1911 but he could possibly have been serving abroad. Is it possible to find any more info on Stephen using his Army No

Let's start at the beginning. This is what is thought to be known about Sarah Daisy Harris & her marriages.

Marriages Mar 1897
Berry Emily Harriet Lambeth 1d 439
Cotton Charles Lambeth 1d 439
>>>>>FISHER William James Lambeth 1d 439
>>>>>Harris Sarah Daisy Lambeth 1d 439
(No known children from this marriage.)


1901:
William Fisher Sarah abt 1876 Rotherhithe, London, England Head Lambeth, London - General Carman
Sarah Fisher William abt 1878 Waterloo, London, England Wife Lambeth, London - Shirt Ironer
Sub-district is Waterloo Road


1901:
Patrick Murray abt 1871 Ireland Militiaman Dover, Kent - Citadel Barracks
Stephen Murray abt 1877 Ireland Militiaman Dover, Kent - Citadel Barracks

Deaths Dec 1903
Fisher William James 29 Wandsworth 1d 285

Marriages Dec 1904
>>>>FISHER Sarah Daisy Wandsworth 1d 1003
Murfin Philip Wandsworth 1d 1003
>>>>Murray Patrick Wandsworth 1d 1003
Potty Florence May Wandsworth 1d 1003


Births Mar 1906
Murray Patrick Wandsworth 1d 559

Births Sep 1908
Murray John Stephen Wandsworth 1d 494

Births Dec 1909
Murray Sarah Daisy Wandsworth 1d 475


1911: Murrays at 35 Landseer Street (Stephen's whereabouts unknown)
MURRAY PATRICK M 1873 38 Wandsworth London
MURRAY SARAH DAISY F 1879 32 Wandsworth London
MURRAY PATRICK M 1906 5 Wandsworth London
MURRAY JOHN STEVEN M 1909 2 Wandsworth London
MURRAY SARAH DAISY F 1910 1 Wandsworth London

Deaths Jun 1913
Murray Patrick 40 Wandsworth 1d 443

Marriages Dec 1916
>>>>>Murray Sarah D Murray Wandsworth 1d 1273
>>>>>Murray Stephen Murray Wandsworth 1d 1273
Scarfe Herbert S Williams Wandsworth 1d 1273
Williams Maud E M Scarfe Wandsworth 1d 1273

Births Jun 1918
Murray Mary M Harris Wandsworth 1d 658

Births Sep 1920
Murray Nellie E Harris Wandsworth 1d 967

Births Mar 1923
Murray Alfred G Harris Wandsworth 1d 892

There's obviously another child somewhere, perhaps later.
Or what about this??
Births Sep 1914
Murray John T Harris Wandsworth 1d 918

The dates of birth I have are Patrick 1873 and Stephen 1875

my dad always said his family were from Cork but thats about all the information I have on the Irish connection
,Incidentally Patrick and Sarah Daisy had three children, my dad being the oldest. Stephen and Sarah Daisy had four children.

I know that Stephen was DEFINITELY buried in Kensal Green as I have one of those black edged memorial cards found in my dads effects,

Carol....Going back to the "Drawing Board" on this one...

1..I cannot locate births on the Pilot site for either a Patrick or a Stephen for the dates given.

2.The only Murray family (1881 Census) with children named Patrick and Stephen are John and Mary Murry (Cork Ireland) living at 1 Whisters Ground Middx. Patrick b.Westminister 1871 and Stephen 1873..plus a number of other sisters and bros.

Did you have any of this info on your deleted thread..?

National archives has his medal card online. Costs £2 to download pdf. Not sure how much information would be found on it but for £2 maybe worth the expense just to have.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=4382448&queryType=1&resultcount=1

Carol...Just a note to bear in mind...It is one heck of a distance from Battersea to Kensal Green...wonder what the connection between to two places could be...

Thanks Netty but think the dates are too far out for that, but will investigate.

I am now pretty certain that Patrick died in 1913 (wandsworth 1d 443) and that absolutely certain that Stephen died in1932 ( Battersea 1d353) Stephen is buried in Kensal Green Cemetery London Grave 805G

Hi Carol, I'm not much help with anything Military i'm afraid, but, could this be a possible 1911 for Stephen, birth year is out by 7 years though !.

MILITARY MURRAY STEPHEN 1870 41 Overseas Military

Edit: Might not be as this is showing too:

MILITARY MURRAY STEPHEN M 1905 6 Overseas Military

Looks like father & Son maybe !!

Hi there, the one absolute fact is the that Stephen was a gunner in the RFA and his military number, my cousin has his ww1 service medal. I cant be sure about the Citadel in 1901 although I had heard through family that they were both there and it would be such a coincidence that there was a stephen and a Patrick Murray on the census and the ages are correct !!! What do you think?

No, it was me that mentioned the Royal Inniskilling Rifles as I found out they were at the Citadel during that census time. Also being recorded as militiamen makes that ring true.

Carol has Stephen's RFA number. Is it possible he re-enlisted for WW1?

Ozi.

Ozbird...The possibility crossed my mind also...however I have lost the "thread" so to speak... as I recall Carol mentioned they were in Royal Inniskilling Rifles hence the ref to Donegal Militia now we have Stephen listed in the Royal Field Artillery (RFA)..unusual for Servicemen to change Regiments unless through amalgamation but then I am no Military expert

ErinGoBragh1916 - Could Stephen have been on overseas service in 1911, assuming he was still in the army?

Ozi.