Genealogy Chat

Sally. It might pay to contact Tina direct because she might no return to this thread thinking she had received all the help she could

Hello Tina
I can understand your frustration as I am also trying to get the lowdown on Simon Bathgate. My friend is the great great grandson of the John Bathgate born 'at sea'. I have nothing more useful to add except to say that if you look closely at John's marriage certificate to Jane Reid where, as you say, his mother's name of Mary Duffy seems to have been crossed out - it actually hasn't been. Look at the name of Jane Reid's mother. It looks exactly the same as the bit that has been crossed out against John's name - looks as if the registrar was just correcting a mistake he was about to make. The only other thing it is useful to note is that in the 1841 census Simon is shown as living in Church Street, Tranent which is the same street that John is living at in 1851 - it would seem to be too much of a coincidence if they weren't related.
SallyB

Mgnv

Thank you for trying to help me out with this , it is very much appreciated.

Keith,

Thank you also for looking this up for me, i just wish i had more time at the moment to search all the records i need to.

Best wishes Tina

Hi Tina,
I have checked the Military Indicies on FMP, unfortunately I cannot find a birth for John Wellington Bathgate. Also unfortunately the GRO Births at Sea Index does not start until 1854 so not on there either.
There is a John Bathgate on the GRO REGIMENTAL BIRTH INDICES SUPPLEMENT, shown b Kingston C.?. but 1859, too late for your John.

Tina - I pm'ed a poster on another thread, and he checked Find My Past for me. FMP do have the 3 pre-1837 army BMDs, so if you spot someone offering to do FMP lookups, you might contact them.

MGNV,

Thank you for this i will certainly look into this and see if i can find army records for simon and or birth cert for john,.

i have tried on the national records for simon being in the army, but as i have no leads to know this for sure i sort of gave up, but i think i may have to carry on this lead of thinking to know for sure if he was and maybe crack the link.

Thank you once again for all your suggestions which are very helpful to a novice.

Best wishes Tina

I don't think we should pursue the following line on this thread, but what do I know.

Anyway, one possible line of inquiry into John's birth and Simon's background is his army service.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/researchguidesindex.asp

It would seem that records for, say, 1816-1839 are really ordered by regiment.
Assuming Simon's West Indies trip was army related would imply Simon was regular army (as distinct from militia, yeomanry, territorial)
Presumably, one could narrow down the regiments to those in the windies in 1830 +/-5.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=23
2. Regimental Registers of Births, 1761-1924
The regimental registers of births, 1761-1924 are indexed: the index gives the regiment and place of birth of children born to the wives of serving soldiers, if they were attached to the regiment. If you have some knowledge of offspring or areas of service, this can be an easy way to narrow the field.

The index can be seen at The National Archives but the records are held by the General Register Office, and are not on open access. To actually identify the correct child, parent and regiment, you may have to buy more than one certificate from the GRO.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=31


I must admit I never knew one could buy b.certs from the GRO pre-1837, but it seems there are 3 series for the earlier years:
Chaplin's returns, Army registers, and the Corfu occupation force. The first 2 potentially apply, but I don't know where the indices are. I don't think there's any online for 1830ish.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/documents/digitalasset/dg_176232.pdf


A full set, including recent overseas events, are available at Greater Manchester County Record Office, Birmingham Central Library, Bridgend Reference and Information Library and Plymouth Central Library. The overseas indexes can also be viewed at the National Archives at Kew.
http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/documents/digitalasset/dg_176534.pdf

Hi ,

im going to be away from my comp for 1 week as of today so if i dont reply you know why.

Tina

Hi RE simon death cert-

Simon Bathgate - Retired ( Farmer -- not sure on this though?)
Married to Agnes spence.
Diednov 12th 1875 , aged 70 Aldelic house, poplar lane, leith
Father Simon Bathgate - Land ????? Deceased
Mother margaret Bathgate Nee Bleugh deceased
Paralyis ???
S bathgate present ( son)

District of south leith county of edinburgh


sorry i cant deciper some of the writing this is the best i can make out.
Tina

Re Post: Today(19/8/09) at 13:45 "his son simon registered his death,"
Can you post full details from this d.rego, please

im not sure on agnes death i havent looked at that yet, but i cant find a death for simon, so im not sure if it is a second marraige or just someone else ( it didnt state he was a widower on it) so silly me didnt pay the extra 5 credits to get the copy).

Tina

Where and when did Simon h/o Agnes die - was he a widower?

MGNV,

i have been on scotlands people and got 1851, 1861,1881 census for james, it appears ( if this is the right james ) that he was married to Cath hogg on 20th dec 1850 ( marrige cert).
i also have his death cert in 1890 and his parents were down as simon Bathgate ( deceased) and sarah bathgate ( deseased) maiden name unknown, so i tried for a marriage of simon and sarah and came up with nothing and i tried for a death of sarah and came up with nothing and a death of simon ( which came up with him being married to agnes spence).
his son simon registered his death, but i have no proof that simon ( my johns dad) had a son called simon as i only have 1841 census and his name isnt on it.
i may well get the original census for 1841 just to make sure there is no mistakes on the one i have a copy of.
Thank you again for coming back and for all your advise.

Tina

It's clear that one and maybe two of these transcriptions are wrong. Now it's not really my place to say how you should spend your credits, and it is two pages, but I would definitely want to see the originals for myself so I could make up my own mind.

I do think this is your John, incidentally.

MGNV.

Now im really confused!!
Who is douglas?? and who is david??

do you think i may have the wrong John on this census?, i know they dont always put down the correct country , but i know for sure on two census for john ( with his wife along side) that he was born at sea in the west indies, so could i be looking at the wrong john??,
I have been stuck on this for a few months now and cant seem to get a break through,

oh dear what a head ache!!!.

Thank you again for coming back to me.

Tina

Piece: SCT1841/722 Place: Tranent -East Lothian Enumeration District: 9
Civil Parish: Tranent (Part Of) Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: -
Folio: 6 Page: 1
Address: Church Street
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Surname First name(s) Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
BATHGATE Simon M 41 Coal Miner Ireland
BATHGATE Douglas F 19 Ireland David entered then crossed out
BATHGATE John M 12 Ireland
BATHGATE Mary F 12 Ireland
BATHGATE James M 12 Ireland
Page: 6/2 BATHGATE Frances F 8m Unknown

[Douglas is italicized - i.e., FreeCEN's sign of an unsure transcription]


Ancestry has the female Douglas as Mather, and James as a=15.
It's odd to place a child out of age order (but not unkbown) - it could be that James is a nephew,
or there could be triplets, or Mary might have a real twin and an Irish twin,

Note Quinsgran's rounding down comments only apply to adults (i.e., 15+), as she notes.

quinsgran,

Thank you for this infor ( i didnt know that), My goodness there seems to be so much to learn!!!.

Tina

mgnv,

thank you for your info, i will def try and get johns death cert to see if it is his brother.

Best wishes Tina

1841 census ages are rounded down after the age of 15, sometimes, but not always.

Someone age 19 could be 15 on the census . That is why its assumed people could be twins

I'm wondering if this is John's bro James - his wife appears to be Cath Hogg.
There's only a submitted marr in the IGI, and a submitted birth for Simon.
James appears in the census at Gladsmuir thru 1881, and Cath thru 1901.
It would seem worthwhile getting his d.rego to see if he's yours.
Gladsmuir is the next parish to Tranent - for a map showing parishes, see:
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/gazetteer/


Piece: SCT1851/708 Place: Gladsmuir -East Lothian Enumeration District: 2
Civil Parish: Gladsmuir Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: Gladsmuir
Folio: 0 Page: 13 Schedule: 50
Address: -
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Surname First name(s) Rel Status Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
BATHGATE James Head M M 22 Coal Miner England - Portsmouth
BATHGATE Catherine Wife M F 22 East Lothian - Gladsmuir
BATHGATE Simon Son U M 4m East Lothian - Gladsmuir