Genealogy Chat

Choccy - many thanks for the info - certainly full of Hockings and Dunstans and it certainly is something else to think about it. I'm sure Hocking must be the key to something.

Gerry - thanks too for the information on the Downs - it'll be interesting to see if any of the names match up with the John Down cert I've ordered.

There are three deaths listed for Down in the March quarter for 1919

Mabel M Down age 28 St Germans Vol 5c Page 47

Ronald A Down age 0 St Germans Vol 5c Page 51

Mabel L Down age 37 St Germans Vol 5c Page 35

Gerry

No idea if it's relevant, but just another something to think about!

Marriages Sep 1914 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dunstan Olga S Hocking Falmouth 5c 255
Hocking Samuel J Dunstan Falmouth 5c 255

Gerry

Having had 3 power cuts last night I only managed to look briefly at the births in the name of Woodall over several years but could find nothing for example in Cornwall or Devon. Looking for a death search for Mrs Down is a good idea. I don't know if my father ever knew he was adopted. He never spoke of his family apart from mentioning a sister and brothers in a letter to my mother which I found after her death. Certainly noone from his family attended their wedding. (His adopted father had already died by then and I learned from this letter that his adopted mother had moved to Worcester from Cornwall to be with her daughter as her house was blown up in an air raid) My mother never mentioned it to me - she was one of 9 and although only a few remain from her family, none of them had any inkling John was adopted. No photos exist of his family. Awaiting copy of birth cert with great interest.
Sandylands

Hi Minnie

When a child is born they are registered in the live births in their original birth name.

After a child is adopted they are then registered in the Adopted Children Register in their adoptive name. A new 'birth' certificate is issued in their adoptive name.

Children of adoptees in the UK have no legal right to information from their parents adoption file. The only way to gain further information is to search the births index and try and find a match and hopefully cross reference the date of birth on the original birth and adoption certificates.

Sandylands

I've had a look at the John Down listing on FreeBMD and Woodall is under the mother's name. I can't find a corresponding birth for Woodall so I can only assume the parents were married. (It's times like these I wish I had Ancestry) I'm wondering if anyone can do a death search for Mrs Down... perhaps this was the reason John was adopted.

Adoption first started in 1927 until then they were informal arrangements often between families, Dr or local Minister. A person could be adopted up to the age of 21. I suspect this was done to formalise things (like next of kin) before he joined the RAF.

I wondering if your father ever knew that he was adopted.

Good luck with the certificate.

Cheers Gerry

Hi Caz, Choccy and Gerry - thanks to you Choccy this is the nearest I've got to hopefully finding my father's birth name - I've sent off today for a copy of John Down's birth certificate and will post the details. I have to agree that I thought perhaps the H referred to Hocking -

Hi Minnie - I'll try and explain as clearly as I can without hopefully too much waffling about the possible link between John Down and my father John Dunston. It seems that Dunston was not my father's birth name but I knew that he was born 13 Oct 1913 in Saltash. The only way I thought it was possible to trace him was to try and find male births at approximately the same time and in Saltash. This is where Choccy's sterling work came in by locating a John H D Down whose birth date was Dec 1913 in St Germans. Saltash is linked to St Germans as the latter is the registration district for Saltash. John Down's birth is registered in the Oct-Dec quarter so it may coincide with my father's birth date. Only the birth certificate of John Down for which I have applied will confirm this. I do hope I haven't muddled you any more!

That was what I thought too and also the fact that Saltash was mentioned.

Hi,

I wonder if the initials H D in John H D Downs name could stand for Hocking Dunstan. Maybe it's just wishful thinking but it's not entirely impossible if his birth mother was a relative of his adopted parents.

Good luck,
Caz

I read thru this thread & can't quite understand how or why

Births Dec 1913
DOWN John H D Woodall St.Germans 5c 68

could be his original birth?

I might be being thick but, can someone explain please

Hi Sandylands

Births are listed in quarters on the index in the birth register.

If this is your father's original birth listing and born in October 1913 it should be shown in the December quarter 1913.

Hopefully the John Down birth cert is the correct one and shows the same date of birth.

Failing that it means trawling for more male births registered in the St Germans registration district from A to Z and a big job. Well done Chocky for finding this registration.

Sandylands... you are quite correct, present legislation doesn't give the right to the child of an adopted person to access their parents adoption file.

Cheers Gerry

Hi Gerry

I agree with you - I think this is definitely worth pursuing and will order a copy of the birth certificate. Even though my father was born in Oct 1913, the birth may not have been registered till the Dec so worth a try.

Regards

Hi Sandylands

I've just read this thread again to get a better understanding of it. To me the John H D Down looks promising... have you applied for the birth certificate?

Cheers Gerry

Hi Rose

I must definitely start trying to trace my father's siblings and their children who would of course be my cousins and may well still be alive.

Hi Gerry

From your description it certainly seems I have a short adoption 'birth' certificate in that it is headed CERTIFICATE OF BIRTH. Under the details of my father's name (John Hocking Dunston), sex, date of birth, place of birth it reads Certified to have been compiled from records in the custody of the Registrar General. Given at the General Register Office, Somerset House, London under the Seal of the said Office, the 8th day of April 1960.

What I've been calling a copy of an Adoption certificate has the wording CERTIFIED copy of an entry in the Adopted Children Register maintained at the General Register Office given at the GENERAL REGISTER OFFICE, under the seal of the said Office, the 29th day of October 2008 (the date which I applied for a copy of it). On this certificate is the name John Hocking as being the name of the adopted child. Dunston is only mentioned in the column entitled name, surname, address and occupation of adopter or adopters.

Hi Quinsgran

If a father admits to paternity and is present at registration then all children born of unmarried parents are listed twice in the birth index.
Once in the mother's name and then again in the father's name. Both entries will show the same GRO reference details.

Gerry

My mother has a short birth cert which she must have ordered later in life.
It was only after doing the tree I found her parents hadnt married till she was 14 months old.

I then found her birth registered under her mothers maiden name and her fathers surname. Both had the same reg number.

Hi Sandylands

Just to let you all know that you can distinguish the difference between an original short birth certificate and a short adoption 'birth' certificate.

On an original short birth cert the wording at the bottom states that 'The above particulars have been COMPILED FROM AN ENTRY IN MY CUSTODY. This cert would be issued from the place where the child was registered.

On a short adoption 'birth' cert it states 'Certified to have been COMPILED FROM THE RECORDS IN THE CUSTODY OF THE REGISTRAR GENERAL. GIVEN AT THE GENERAL REGISTER OFFICE. In other words taken from the Records of the Adopted Children Register which is held by GRO.

If you have a short 'birth' cert and full Adoption Certificate in the same name, I'd say the short one is not your father's original birth name.

Short adoption certs are clearly marked Certificate of Birth even though it wasn't stickly a birth cert... they were issued so a child wouldn't be discriminated against.

Let us know the wording on the short cert.

Cheers Gerry

I think you should try tracking down your father's siblings' descendants. They were all old enough to know the true story and some of their children probably knew your father.

Rose

It does sound like the short certificate you hold is indeed a short version of the adoption certificate.

Can you say when the short certificate was issued. There may be more than just when the birth was originally registered.

Hi Sandylands,
My dad was adopted at 14 in 1940, after the man he called 'dad' was killed during the war. As an adult, he too only ever had a 'short' birth certificate.
I looked him up using his adoptive name and found his name handwritten at the bottom of the page, with the note - eg '5b see J42.' which I presume refers to the journal.
I took a chance and looked him up under his mother's maiden name - and there he was. Obviously gran never married my dad's 'dad' - which I already knew as he was already married as the next of kin on the CWG site isn't my gran!!
However, what I found strange was that my dad's original registration was also handwritten at the bottom of the page - with the same note!
Many years ago, before it move to the Midlands - I was at Somerset House and looked up J42 - only to find the relevant page carefully removed!

Choccy - I'm really interested in the Dec 1913 birth you've discovered as although my father was born in Saltash the birth would have been registered in the district of St Germans. I'll pursue this one - thanks.
You've also found details of Sidney Dunstan which I've been struggling with. I assume he must be my father's adopted brother which is giving me yet another lead. Re William and Mary Dunstone - I looked at the 1881 census where he was 43 and she was 50 but as you say there's a big age difference in the 1871 census. I've applied for a copy of their marriage certificate. You've given me so much to work on. A big thank you.

Janet - re my father's birth certificates. I have a small sized square one which has red writing on a yellowish background. Top left are red numbers, top right are black hand written numbers. Bottom left are more black handwritten numbers. It just gives my father's name, sex, date of birth and place of birth as England. The other certificate is a landscape copy of an entry in the Adopted Children Register giving date of entry, name of adopted child, date of adoption order & description of court by which made etc. etc. What I hadn't noticed before is the No of entry in the 1st column of this certificate is the same number as bottom left of the short certificate. Would this have any significance? Thanks.