Genealogy Chat

New Info below for those that have been following the thread

I have found the burial place for my GGgrandfather and his wife, as well as his son my GGrandfather and his wife. All four in the same plot at St Mary's Kensal Green RC Cemetery.
In talking with the cemetery supervisor he casually said "there are actually five in the plot".
Well that took me by suprise as the first four were all "Cliffords" and the fifth was a Ann O'Brien !!
Am I right in thinking that maybe she was a relative buried under a married name or someone just buried in the plot because they were short of space ??
Anyone got any other explanations ?
Stuart

I don't know for certain but I would have thought it would be a relative.

Could the cemetery supervisor give you the date of burial for this person, then you may be able to find the death certificate, which may give you some clues (perhaps another relative might be the informant, or the address might give some clues)?

Kath. x

The burial dates were as follows:

Great Great Granfather - Sept 1877 - Age 74
Great Great Grandmother - Oct 1878 - Age 75
Ann O'Brien - Jan 1890 - Age 62
Great Grandfather - Dec 1899 - Age 65
Great Grand Mother - Jun 1916 Age 73

I don't think she is Mrs Clifford Snr's mother.

Regards
Stuart

May i just add, that depending on the age of Ann this may not be useful but..

I was told that when babies are born 'dead' back in the day they used to just put the baby in somebodies coffin who was being buried that day. they do not even ask the person's family who is being buried...there is a name for this but i cant remember it!

anyway, doesnt really apply to this but thought i'd add...not very nice as the baby was seen as evil back then and was not even allowed to be named!

anyway, glad times have moved on!

Could this be the death:-

Name: Ann O'Brien
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1828
Year of Registration: 1890
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at Death: 62
District: Edmonton
County: Essex, Hertfordshire, Middlesex
Volume: 3a
Page: 242

Kath. x

Rachelle,

You are right about babies being put into someone else's coffin who was being buried that day (this happened to my husband's baby brother in 1946), but in Stuart's case, none of the other people in the grave were buried in the same year, so this can't have happened in this case.

Kath. x

Kath,

Thanks for that info. The age seems right. It would be nice to have a place of birth!!

The cemetery register shows the body was brought from Holborn, which would be along way from Edmonton where the death was recorded.

Regards
Stuart

That's the only death I can see on FreeBMD for late 1889 or early 1890 for Ann O'Brien in the London area.

Kath. x

Kath,

Thanks for looking anyway. I think we may have a possibility that there has been some sort of typo along the way with the surname. My Cliffords were of Irish origins and the O'Brien could be anything from Brian, Brien, O'Brian, O'Brien, O'Bryan, Bryan, Bayan, etc etc.
I will persue your info with the death cert. That may shed some light on who she was.
Nobody said it was going to be easy !!

Regards
Stuart

Ann O'brien is going to be a relative. Grave records are a gem. GG grandmother or grandfather's married sister?

Keep searching, you wil find out who she is.

Margaret

Margaret

Thanks for the direction. It could be possible as Ggrandfather had two sisters one of which was a Johanna(h) Clifford and the other was a Mary Ann Clifford. Both born in Ireland (Kerry?) and came to England between 1835 and 1841 with the rest of the family.
I guess I need to look for some marriage certs.

Regards
Stuart

Thanks to all who replied.
I have searched Free BMD and found two potential marriages for Johanna Clifford that could fit the bill:

1) Johanna Clifford - John Brien, Mar 1854, St Giles 1b 443

2) Johanna Clifford - Jeremiah Bryan, Sep 1856, St Olave 1d 67

I guess with the Irish connection Brien and Bryan could easily be corrupted to O'Brien !!

1861 census shows a Johanna Brien (Head, Widow) with two children living at 9 Blue Anchor Yard, Whitechapel.

Entries for Johanna/Jeremiah Bryan do not seem to fit the criteria.

Stuart

Have you looked for them on the 1891 census. It could give the relationship.

There is this Johannah O'Brien in the 1881 census as a patient in a Lunatic Asylum stated as married and coming from Ireland. The birth year seems about right:-

Name: Johannah O'Brien
Age: 53
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1828
Relation: Patient
Gender: Female
Where born: Ireland
Civil Parish: Norwood
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Street address: "St Bernards Hospital" Norwood
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status:

View Image
Occupation: Dom Servant
Registration district: Uxbridge
Sub registration district: Hayes
ED, institution, or vessel: Middlesex Lunatic Asylum

Source Citation: Class: RG11; Piece: 1336; Folio: 105; Page: 34; Line: ; GSU roll: 1341325.

I haven't listed everyone mentioned as there are a lot of patients.

Kath. x

The thing is that in this case there were two more family members interred AFTER the unknown person, so I think she must have been a family member.

Kath. x

Stuart, she is going to be a relative. It is clearly a family grave, not a common grave. Keep digging (so to speak!).

Margaret

Hi Lynda and Shelly

Thanks for the info. I have been to the St Mary's Cemetery and spoken with the Superintendant. He is certainly a very good source of info (and Irish to boot !!). He showed me the burial entry for Ann O'Brien , and this says she was brought from Chapel Street, Holborn, London.
Further research has shown that Chapel Street had its name changed after WWII and is now call Rugby Street (extra confusion)
If the FreeBMD entry that Kathleen Bell found (see above) where she died in Edmonton is correct, then its a long round about trip for a burial - Edmonton to Holborn to Kensal Green, if its the same person.

I have splashed out some money (expensive !) and sent off for the marriage cert with a John Brien (Mar 1854, St Giles 1b 443) and also for the death cert for Edmonton ( Jan-Feb-Mar 1890, 3a 242) and see what comes back.

I will also check out the census to see if any relations were living in that area at that time.

Thanks & Regards
Stuart

Waiting for the Marriage and Death Certs. Hopefully they will shed some light on the mystery

***N***

Hi All,

Got a marriage cert and the death cert this morning an a few interesting points:

Marriage cert shows she marries as Johanna Clifford, age 21, spinster, living at 9 Duke Street, Lincoln's Inn Fields to John Brien, age 22, of 2 Orange Court, Drury Lane. at the Sardinian Chapel, on 5 Feb 1854.
Her father is given as John Clifford, Upholsterer, and his father as Timothy Brien, Husband Man (some sort of animal farmer ?).
Her address is given as 9 Duke Street, Lincoln's Inn Fields, which is the family address in the 1851 census.

The Death cert shows an Ann O'Brien, age 62, widow of John O'Brien (Clement Danes, Drury Lane) died 8 Jan 1890 at the Strand Union Workhouse, Edmonton.

Question is, is the Johanna (nee Clifford) Brien in the marriage cert and the Ann O'Brien in the death cert the same person ??

The body is brought from 9 Chapel Street (now Rugby Street) Holborn, to the RC Cemetery at St Mary's Kensal Green for burial on 13 January 1890.

Further research shows the Clifford family living at 15 Chapel Street in the 1891 census. No family ties appear in the 1891 census for 9 Chapel Street.

All very confusing. Would welcome any further ideas as to this situation.

Regards
Stuart