Genealogy Chat

Anthea and Sue
Thank so much i have spent hours on this and someone else coming to the same conclusion as me helps,
I said earlier that i thought William had something to hide now i am convinced ,
He has to be William Scaife,
The marriage details i didn't have and i think i will send for that cert maybe it could help as she remained in Rotherham I sort of though her aunt who was there in 1901 may have taken the girls but it seems not
Roll on the 1911 census
Again thank you for your help on this mystery
Julie

So presumably this is William Scaife's (possibly cane's) birth cert then?

Name: William Isaac Scaife
Year of Registration: 1865
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Bethnal Green
County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 1c
Page: 241 (click to see others on page)

Sue

Not sure if you already have this marr entry for Florence, might come in handy for your files. Born to William Scaife but married as Florence Cane:

Name: Florence E Cane
Year of Registration: 1917
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
Spouse's Surname: Speight
District: Rotherham
County: Derbyshire, South Yorkshire, Yorkshire - West Riding
Volume: 9c
Page: 1295


Athena

This certainly is a puzzle, to say the least!

Has had my head in a tizzy all morning trying to fathom it out, LOL!

Well, having read and re-read all the info, it does look as though William Cane and William Scaife are the same person, although I don't know how we'd prove that 100%. All I can do is give you all the evidence that makes me lean towards that theory...

The thing that throws a spanner in the works is the marriage cert of William to Bertha in which he states his fathers name as being Thomas. If William Cane was William Scaife then he surely would have put his father's name as William (we know William Scaife's father was a William from the1871 census) unless he really was hiding the fact that he was a Scaife so gave a false first name for his father too on his marriage cert. Maybe he just didn't want anybody finding out who he really was.

Trying to look at this realistically - what are the chances that you'd find two men, both Williams, born Bethnal Green London in 1865/66, both living in Yorkshire at the same time, both join up with the Yorkshire Regiment at the same time, both have the same occupation of Postman and BOTH end up marrying/living with the same woman - Elizabeth Walters!!!

Come on - it's highly unlikely isn't it?

Surely what happened is that for some unknown reason, William Scaife changed his name to William Cane when entering the South Yorkshire Regiment.

The fact that we see two entries on the 1891 census - one for a Wm Scaife at home with wife Elizabeth and the other for Wm Cane at the barracks does NOT mean they can't be the same person under two different names. It's very possible that his wife put his name down on the enumerator's form (quite possible he even spent time there that day) and then he could have been entered on the form at the Barracks for that night too.

It's not impossible - I have a couple of incidents like this on my own tree where various women from one family are listed as being at their parent's home and at the same time they are listed in their own homes with their husband!

Ok - so bearing that in mind, now let's look at the birth cert of the child - William Bertram Cane 1895.

It states his mothers name as Elizabeth Cane formerly Walters. Now, if she HAD been a wife of a Mr Scaife prior to being a Cane, the birth cert would have (or should have) noted this. It would have said something like Elizabeth Cane, late Scaife (if she'd been widowed), formerly Walters.

The other thing I've checked is deaths for William Scaife between 1891-1895 (reason I checked up to 1895 was thinking that if Elizabeth was with William Cane at that point - and she must have been in order to have had a son born 1895 named William Bertram CANE) - anyway, there isn't one listed in the whole of the UK. So if there WAS a William Scaife what happened to him if he didn't die and doesn't appear on the 1901?

I think I've exhausted just about all my lines of reasoning that I can think of on this one.

In a nutshell, I think William Scaife changed his name to William Cane... unless anyone can spot any flaw to that theory LOL

Athena

Hi Sue
Yes this is the same child
Its all weird to me,
If you look at the 1901 the other girl Florence also belongs to William Scaife but was born in Swinton, William 1895 is William Cane son.
William Cane and Elizabeth also lost two little boys both named Wallace Augustine one in 1896 and one in 1896
Julie

H Christine

Elizabeth Scaife
Age: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1867
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Wm Isaac
Gender: Female
Where born: Lye Near Stourbridge, Yorkshire, England

Civil Parish: Pontefract
Ecclesiastical parish: St Giles
Town: Pontefract
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View Image

Registration district: Pontefract
Sub registration district: Pontefract
ED, institution, or vessel: 14
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Elizabeth Scaife 24
Rosellen Scaife 1/12
Wm Isaac Scaife 25

William Cane
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1866
Relation: Soldier
Gender: Male
Where born: Middlesex, London, England

Civil Parish: Tanshelf
Ecclesiastical parish: St Giles
Town: Tanshelf
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View Image

Registration district: Pontefract
Sub registration district: Pontefract
ED, institution, or vessel: Robertblose Barracks
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:

Hope this works first time i have done this!!

I do not have 2 marriages for Elizabeth only this one
William Isaac Scaife and Elizabeth Walters married 7th Dec 1890 at Pontefract,

William Bertram Canes birth cert confirm that his parents are William Cane a Postman and Elizabeth Cane formerly Walters,
William was born 25/02/1895 at Swinton.

Julie

OOH this is weird. Here is the 1891 for William Isaac Scaife, the soldier in Pontefract, married to Elizabeth. Their daughter is Rosellen. Is this the same Rose E in Athena's 1901 census for William Cane?

Name: Wm Isaac Scaife
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1866
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Elizabeth
Gender: Male
Where born: Bethnal Green, London, England

Civil Parish: Pontefract
Ecclesiastical parish: St Giles
Town: Pontefract
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View Image

Registration district: Pontefract
Sub registration district: Pontefract
ED, institution, or vessel: 14
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Elizabeth Scaife 24
Rosellen Scaife 1/12
Wm Isaac Scaife 25

Sue

Can you post the 1891 census details you have please?

They can't be the same person can they , if you have 2 marriages for Elizabeth.

Will have a look later as going out shortly.

Christine

Hi I
I have checked every possible thing i can think of and always come to a dead end,
I even have the marriage cert For William Scaife and Elizabeth but that held no clues
William Scaifes father was William,
I honestly think William Cane had something to hide
I just don't know where else to look short of sending for every birth cert that could possibly fit.
I have even looked at all Williams born between 1864 and 1868 with no luck
William Scaife was also born in Bethnal Green and I Can't locate him in 1901 maybe they are the same person,
Only thing that puts me off that is they both seem to be in Pontefract in 1891?
And then there is the fact that Williams birth was not registed at all, But someone must have cared for him as a child?
I am at a total loss but thank you all for your help and interest
Julie

He was 70 when he died Rotherham so that would make him born 1867. Have you checked those births on the census returns to see who the parents are. Irene

Irene
William was buried 19/06/1937
Thank you Julie

He was a soilder, William Scaife was also a soilder in pontefract married to Elizabeth Walters.

I belive William Cane and Elizabeth ran away together while she was expecting her husbands child
I found a baptism in Swinton parish records for her 2nd daughter that says her father was William Scaife a Postman but it was William Cane who was the Postman ? After he left the Army, hence my confusion.
Bertha Adams my grandmother then came from Pontefract and married William after the death of Elizabeth and then strangly when William Cane died Bertha buried him with Elizabeth?
Bertha is buried sepreretly weird or what.
Julie

Do you know when he died as that will give his age at the time of death. Irene

Oh sorry, didn't realise you had your William on the 1891 census.

So what was your William's profession?

Hi
William married Bertha 24/08/1901 at Swinton
Julie

Hi Athena
There are two marriages registed in Lambeth both SQ 1888 for Thomas William Cane and William Thomas Cane ,
Thomas married Louisa Hepper
I picked them up in the 1891 census Lane not Cane.

William T Cane in 1891 is married to Helen, She is also a Hepper? The are living in Hackney and William is a Sign writter,

My William in 1891 was in Pontefract.

But thank you for helping,
Julie

What year did your William Cane marry?

Athena
I followed William butt Cane through all Census
It was confusing but i believe he married someone in London, He also dropped the Butt from his name.
Julie

Ok - so the fact he states his father is Thomas ties in with the family I found on the 1871 census.

That being the case - this is the same family in 1881 Census - the men have changed their middle names:

Name: Wm.Thos. Cane
Age: 15
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1866
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Thomas John
Gender: Male
Where born: Hoxton, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: Shoreditch
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address: 34 Bridport Place
Education:

Employment status: View Image
Occupation: Servant Domestic

Registration district: Shoreditch
Sub registration district: Hoxton Old Town
ED, institution, or vessel: 19
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Elizabeth Cane 18
Louisa Cane 9
Mary Ann Cane 13
Sarah Cane 12
Thomas John Cane 40, glass writer, b Birmingham
Wm.Thos. Cane 15

Thomas John is stated as being married but his wife is not listed.

The occupation differs to that stated on Williams marr cert but Thomas may have changed jobs at some point.

Athena

Sorry
The girls father was William Scaife not Duce
Mary ann Duce was William Scaifes Sister.
I have looked at William Butt Cane and i don't think it is him
Julie