Genealogy Chat

Does anyone know how I can find someone on the 1881 census with only an address to go on. The person is a witness at my grandmothers wedding but I cannot make out the signature. The address is very clear.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks Linda

1881 can be searched by address

Surely the address would be for the couple getting married and not of a witness?

Hello Glitter Baby,

Thank you for your reply. My grandmother was not living with her parents at the time of her marriage and I am trying everything I can think of to find her on the 1881 census. She is living with an unknown family and I just wanted to see if she was with them in 1881. Do you know if it is possible to look up an address?
Thanks Linda

Linda

As Glitter Baby said, the 1881 is searchable by address. You sometimes have to fiddle a bit, eg entering Rd and if nothing comes up enter Road.

Linda,

Could do with some details.

Do you have your grandmothers wedding cert and have you found her on 1891 and 1901 census?

M

Hello Glitter Baby,

Yes I have the marriage cert and yes she is on the 1891/1901 census.
She was Jane Ann Elizabeth Robinson born 15.11.1868 in Aldershot barracks. Her father was Gervase/Jarvis/Jervis Robinson and her mother was Mary A Robinson. I have also found them on the 1871 census living in Leeds. He was a soldier in the 5th Dragoon Guards. I was wondering if my grandmother Jane was put in the care of a family member whilst her family moved about in the army. On her marriage cert it states her father as deceased soldier. I know he left the army in York in 1872 but have no idead where they went from there until she marries in 1887 in Hull. The two witnesses are James (it looks like) Whittaker and Sarah Ann Fox. My grandmother gives her address as 135 Chiltern Street, Hull. Yorks.
I used to live in Hull and Chiltern Street is very near where all our family used to live.
Any help would be appreicated.
Linda

Chiltern St is listed in the Civil Parish of Newington, ED 15 - there are 50 images


Probably not relevant to the address on a marriage cert in 1887 as to who was living there in 1881

Have been searching the images on Ancestry for you - in 1881 at No. 134 Chiltern Street there was a Frederic Robinson, widw, boatman, b Lincs with son Frederic and daughter Alice Ann. There is no number 135 listed on that page. They listed only the EVEN numbers of Chiltern Street.

Further towards the end of the 50 images they list the ODD numbers of Chiltern Street - but unfortunately these only go up to 117 Chiltern Street for some reason.

Bit confusing!

Athena

I just checked my 1881 census discs and they are exactly the same.

It looks as if some of the images are missing or an area got forgotten.

Sue

Hello Everyone,

I am back from travels and just had a look at the answers from my request. Firstly, I think I know now why the odd numbers only go up to 117 Chiltern Street Hull. This was because it was just being built. I was born in Westbourne Street very near there and this street was not built until the end of 1880's. Athena seems to have found maybe a relative Frederic Robinson but I have to chekc this out. I still have not found Jane Robinson though. There are 16 years missing in her life. The last time I found her was on the 1871 census with her mum and dad in Leeds barracks then the next time is 1887 when she marries my grandad.
Any more ideas would be appreciated from anyone.
Especially Irish as her mother was from Ireland and Gervase (her father) married there and had one child born there before coming back to England and vanishing.
Regards Linda

I think I have a real problem. I have been researching my family for over 20 years. I did all the correct things and ordered certs for each person. The trouble started with my grandfather James Robert Gardiner born 1866 in Hull, Yorkshire. His father on his birth cert is Francis Gardiner, mother Mary Gardiner formerly Johnson. I have since obtained a marriage for Francis and Mary in Hull in 1850. This is where things go wrong. It states Francis was born in Knottingly. I have since found 18 children for this couple. They seemed to baptise a child in Knottingly then one in Hull. I have been sending for the odd certificate for the children but then came the shock. My grandfather James Robert born 1866 in Hull the next son was Joseph born 1867 in Knottingly. It was not until I received this birth certificate that I found I have two families all mixed up. There appears to be two Francis and Mary Gardiner both Mary's having the same maiden name. My Francis married in Hull the other married in Wakefield but had children in Knottingly. Both sets of parents ie Francis and Mary are the same ages. How do I prove which children belong to each parents?

Some of course are obvious. Two are Septimus Gardiner (my father used to talk about this uncle) and another Lavinia Gardiner. This name has been handed down through the generations to my sister. Does anyone know how I can separate each family.
The family which I think is mine also has another puzzle. On the various census returns I have found one child born in USA in 1858. Does anyone know how I can get a birth cert for this child please.
I am going out of my mind now. I thought I had everything sorted out but then as mentioned I got the birth cert for the two brothers and there is no way Mary could have had two children in 5 months. My grandfather was born 18.9.1866 and his so called brother 24.2.1867 in Knottingly. Both Francis's were mariners/watermen/merchant seamen which makes it realy confusing.
Please, please can anyone help me sort this problem out. Any suggestions gratefully received.
Thanks.
Linda

Hi Linda

Wow - talk about confusion, eh?

Anyway, is it not possible to diferentiate the two families via the census reports?

If you want some help with this let me have all the necessary info and I'll see if I can help separate the two families - I've got time on my hands today to help if you need it.

Regards - Athena

Just to make it easy for those looking. I wont add all names..

1861 family transcribed as GARDNER
Joseph 1858 New York. Septimus 11 months Hull


However in 1871 transcribed as GARDINER
Frances Gardiner 1822 Motteneby
Joseph born 1859 United States
Septimus is missing


1881
transcribed as GARDENER
Mary head wife 1833 Hull. sailors wife
Septimus 1861 Hull occ keelman( bargeman)
Catherine 1863 Hull
Mary Ann 1871 Hull
Lavinia 1873 Hull


1851
Frances GARDNER 1824 Knottingley occ mariner
Mary wife 1834 Hull

Hello Athena,
Thanks for the offer, here goes:
Francis Gardiner (sometimes Gardner/Gardener) married Mary Johnson in Hull 23 Sept 1850 (I have the marriage cert). It shows Francis as widower. I have Francis's first marriage cert which shows he marries Sarah Pybus 30 April 1846 in Pontefract. I have found Sarahs death in Hull in 1848.

Margaret who replied has put some of them in her reply. There is the question of Joseph born in USA.
My dad died 35 years ago but I can remember him saying we had connections with USA in as much as our family actually owned Keel boats and that one of the children ran away to America with all the money. Its another one of the stories but maybe a grain of truth in it. Also he used to mention Septimus. Both my sisters who are 17 and 19 years older than me can also remember him mentioning an uncle Septimus.
I have today sent for a birth and death cert for Francis. I will try to get all the other in due course. I have mentioned above which ones I already have,
Regards Linda
The first child for Francis and Mary I can find is Francis Gardner born 1851 in Hull (I have sent for this cert today) he dies in Hull in 1862 (he drowned) I have a copy of the coroners report.
George Gardiner born 1853 Bapt Holy Trinity Hull 10.4.1854.
William Gardiner born 1854 Hull died 1855. I found this years ago, he died from decline.
James Robert born 1855 died 1862 decline Hull
Thomas Johnson Gardiner born 1856 bapt Knottingly 9.6.1856
John Thomas born 1856 bapt Knottingly 21.12.1856 (I have birth cert)
Joseph born 1858 USA
Mary Elizabeth Gardiner born 1860 bapt 17.6.1860 Hull died 25.7.1862 measles Hull (I have death cert)
Septimus Gardiner born 22,5,1860 Hull
Catherine Gardiner born 1861 bapt 30.9.1861 Hull
Joan born 1863 bapt 9.8.1863 Knottingly
Francis George born 1865 bapt 20.5.1865 Knottingly
Richard born 1865
James Robert born 18.9.1866 Hull (my grandfather, I have birth cert)
Kate born 1866
Joseph Gardiner born 21.1.1867 Knottingly
Ann born 1868 bapt 6.9.1868 Knottingly
William born 1868
Mary Ann born 1871 Hull
Lavinia born 1873 Hull

I have looked at the census reports for the family in Hull from 1841 and sometimes all the children are there other times some are missing. The trouble is they lived on barges travelleing between Hull and Knottingly so this is what is causing the confusion especially on census night.

Linda - yesterday in one of your posts you said that both couples were called Francis Gardiner and Mary (nee Johnson). I can see the marriage for 1850 for your couple - but could you confirm that you have found a marriage for the other couple because I couldn't see one when I looked on Ancestry. Have you purchased this other marriage cert? How do you know that the other Mary was also a Johnson?

Athena

Hi Linda

Well, I've been busy this morning trying to sort out the two families. From the list I've made below, I think we can clearly see two separate families - one registered their children in Hull the other in Pontefract. Yours are the Hull lot by the look of it. I've included a few that I stumbled across - may or may not be children of Francis/Mary - could be children of his brother James R as he was also living in Hull area, as you'll see below.

Francis Gardner - 1851 - Kingston upon Hull
Thomas [Barrett?] Gardiner - 1853 - Kingston upon Hull
John Wm Gardiner - 1855 - Hull (June qtr)
James Robert Gardner - 1855 - Hull (Dec qtr)
Septimus Gardiner - 1860 - Hull
Eliza Catherine Gardiner - 1862 - Hull
Francis James Gardiner - 1863 - Hull
Richard Gardiner - 1865 - Hull
James R Gardener - 1866 - Hull
William Gardiner - 1868 - Hull
Mary Ann Gardener - 1871 - Hull
Lavinia Gardener - 1872 - Hull

there were a few I couldn't locate - William Gardiner 1854 Hull and Kate 1866.


Thomas Johnson Gardiner - 1858 - Pontefract
John Thomas Gardiner - 1856/7 - Pontefract
Mary Elizabeth Gardiner - 1860 - Pontefract
Joe/Joseph Gardener - 1863 - Pontefract
Francis George Gardener - 1865 - Pontefract
Joseph Gardiner - 1867 - Pontefract
Ann Gardiner - 1868 - Pontefract


Also found this birth - the middle name caught my eye:

Sarah Pybus Gardiner - 1858 - Hull

Her father was probably a brother of your Francis (seeing as Francis named a son James R). Found her on 1861:


Name: Sarah P Gardiner
Age: 3
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1858
Relation: Granddaughter
Father's Name: James R
Mother's Name: Mary C
Gender: Female
Where born: Hull, Yorkshire, England

Civil Parish: Hull Holy Trinity
Town: Hull
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View Image

Registration district: Hull
Sub registration district: St Mary
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 78
Household Members: Name Age
James A Gardiner 1
James R Gardiner 24
Mary C Gardiner 24
Sarah P Gardiner 3
Catherine Hanson 65
Robinson Hanson 64

Anyway, I guess you will have to work your way through the birth certs for all the Hull children if you want to confirm parentage of each, although some of them are pretty certain to be your Francis and Mary's as we can tie them into the census info.

Hope that's helped.

Athena

Another bit of useful info:

Death entry:

Name: Septimus Gardiner
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1861
Year of Registration: 1892
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at Death: 31
District: Hull (1854 Onw)
County: Yorkshire - East Riding, Humberside
Volume: 9d
Page: 178


1891 CENSUS:

Name: Septimus Gardner
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1861
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Sarah Am
Gender: Male
Where born: Hull, Yorkshire, England

Civil Parish: Holy Trinity
Ecclesiastical parish: St Barnabus
Town: Kingston Upon Hull
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Hull
Sub registration district: Myton
ED, institution, or vessel: 55
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Sarah Am Gardner 24
Septimus Gardner 30 Mariner Seas


Regards


Athena

Hello Athena,
Thank you so much for your reply and information. I did not know of the death of Septimus so this is another cert I need to buy.
Firstly, There are definately two sets of Francis and Mary's. No I have not got the marriage for the Francis and Mary in Wakefield but they married in the Sept quarter in Wakefield and this is the next cert I will buy. I try to get two a months as I have so many to get. The Joseph who was born in USA is a problem though. I do not know how to try to get his birth cert. I cannot imagine my Francis and Mary going to USA with their other children as they were so poor. I have my Francis death cert. He died in Hull in 1884. I found the other Francis and Mary on the 1901 census living with their son Joseph and family.
One other thing you might have an answer to. I was not very good at keeping records when I started out years ago and have found a scribbled note saying there were two Francis and Marys living in Hull on the 1851 census. One living in Hanover Square which I can still find. /the other Francis and Mary living in Finkle Street Hull in a 'Beerhouse'. I must have seen this at some point but cannot find them now. I have tried all variations of the name Gardiner etc. Do you know if there is a way of looking up a Street in the 1851 census?
There is a decendent of my Francis still living in Hull and she was also doing the family history. I suggested we swap copies of certs to save money to which she agreed. I duly sent her at least 12 copies along with a coroners report on the death of Francis junior who died aged 11 (drowned whilst trying to tie up the barg) he fell in the Dock in Hull. She never sent me any copies and now does not reply to my emails. She is the great granddaughter of Catherine Gardiner born 1861 in Hull. At one point Lavinia her sister was living with them and she has her birth cert along with her great grandmothers birth cert. Still I now know not to send copies out.
Unfortunately my dad died 35 years ago and I was not into Family History then. He is the one who used to tell me about this uncle Septimus and that the family had at one time had 'money' and that one of the family ran away to USA with it all. There always seems to be a bit of truth in these stories.
Well thank you once again, if you do know how I could find the other Francis and Mary on the 1851 census I would be grateful.
Regards Linda

Hi Linda

I've now found the marriage of that 2nd pair of Francis/Mary and have them on the 1881 and 1891 Census - so, yes, I can see there are definitely two families. Gosh, talk about coincidences, eh? I wonder if the two chaps are related - cousins maybe?

Here's the census info I found, in case they end up being related to your family you might the info:

1881 - Pontefract, Yorks

Francis Gardiner, 48, Mariner
Mary Gardiner, 45, wife
Joseph Gardiner, 14, son, lad in bottle house
Emma A, 5, dau

1891 - Royal George Barge, Calverley

Francis Gardener, 57, capt Royal George
Mary Gardener, 56, wife
(there is a 15yr old "mate" on board but I can't read the name).

I can't find them on the 1861 census and as they only married in 1852 I'm not sure we'd find them together in 1851 (unless they were living together before marriage).

I didn't find any Francis/Mary's living in Finckle Str on the 1851, that you mentioned. I wonder where you found that info from?

I agree that it does seem strange how your Mary ended up having a child in New York between 1856-58. I wonder if they all went or just the parents or her alone? Maybe you could check to see if there are any archives of ships records from Hull to New York during those years and see if she and any of the others are listed.

Also, I wonder if you were to post a request on the Records Office board for a look-up on Ancestry USA to see if there is a birth listed for Joseph. I've never used the USA records so not sure what they hold.

That's a shame that your contact never got back to you to share the certs and info she had - seems very unfair. How long ago was it that you sent the stuff to her? Did she at least thank you for the info you supplied? I wonder why she didn't reciprocate. Ah well, you live and learn. Maybe next time you are in the same situation with a new family contact, just send a couple of bits at a time, wait until you get something back and then send a bit more. If you send it all in one go they then have no incentive to respond (if they are that way inclined - lazy or whatever). I don't know how people can be like that really.

Anyway, hope you manage to piece your tree together eventually -

best wishes - Athena

Hello Athena
Thanks for the prompt reply. In answer to your question about the person I sent the certs, this was late last year and once this year. It was strange in as much as she was so keen to help. She even told which certs she had etc. Still we live and learn.
I will now look into the possibility of the USA just to see if my Francis did actually go there.
Thanks once again.
Linda