Genealogy Chat

Me again.
Sorry I meant to say Her mother and sister were living next door in 1851 not mother and father.

Just out of interest.

Neptune Street in Hull at that time was very exclusive. Later in the 1890/1900's is became quite a slum. Then Smith and Nephew the pharacuticle company moved in. Neptune street is now exclusively Smith and Nephew with massive buildings. I used to live in Hull and everytime I go back I am amazed at the changes. I just wish I was into family history when I lived there.

Thanks Margaret.
I have had a look and I think the Henry French must have been an uncle. I have looked up Henry and Sarah French on the 1851 census and next door lives Sarahs (I think ) mother and father. I cannot make out their occupations though.
Thanks for help
Linda

1851 census.
Henry French 1794 N Shields occ shipowner employing 16 men
Frances wife 1807 Hull
Samuel Boddy bro in law 1815 Hull.

Address Neptune St Kingston upon Hull

Just of interest living 2 doors away

James Johnson 1803 Walkinton Yorkshire occ brewer and victualler
Maria wife 1817 Bilton Yorkshire


The Henry French who married Sarah is probably the one living Sculcoates

From the IGI
George Tindall Johnson married Mary Ann French 23 Nov 1829 Holy Trinity Kingston upon Hull
Batch no M107481.

There is a Henry French marriage to Sarah Linskill same batch no.
You can find the others

Hello everyone,

On the marriage cert of Francis and Mary it gives 'late George Tindal Johnson - Grocer' for Mary's father. I can only assume I have the right Francis and Mary from my grandfathers birth cert. I first found the marriage for Francis and Sarah and then the death of Sarah in Hull. After a while I found the second marriage of Francis to Mary and assume I have the right Francis and Mary as they married in Hull. The other Francis and Mary married in Wakefield.
One thing I have noticed on the certs is that Mary could not read or write but Francis appears to be able to. On the Wakefield pair X is put for Francis when he registers some births. This again I think proves I have the right pair. I have just noticed on their marriage cert (Francis and Mary Hull) they only have one witness and its a Henry French. This could be an uncle. I shall now look up that name on the 1851 census to see if they were living with him. Has anyone come accross only one witness before. I thought you have to have two?
Anyway will go now to look up this new lead.
Bi
Linda

Linda.
Finkle Street is in the Humber district 3 incase you didnt know


Also what was Mary Johnson fathers name and occ from the marriage cert.? Did you figure out if you have the correct marriage?

Just incase.
1851 census
living 13 Finkle St.
John Johnson 1801 Hull occ something turner
Hannah wife 1797 Selby
William A son 1829 Hull occ journeyman turner
Ann E dau 1832 Hull occ dressmaker
William Etherington son in law 1824 Hull occ ironmomger warehouseman
Mary J Etherington dau 1826 Hull occ dressmaker
Charles Etherington grandson 1850 Hull
William Kirley( could be Kirby) lodger 1775 Beverley occ musician.also hes blind
Mary Jackson lodger 1817 Barrow ion Humber Lincolnshire occ takes in washing

Hi Linda,

Had you found any baptisms for the children at the Beverley RO? I wonder if your note "1851 Finkle St" was from a baptism - the family may have moved there between the birth and the baptism ... and after the 1851 census ... ?

Hello again.
Sorry I made a mistake. I should have said Francis Gardiner married Sarah Dyson in 1846 in Pontefract and not Sarah Pybus. Sarah Dyson died in Hull in 1848 then Francis married Mary Johnson. Sorry about the confuson. Getting carried away. I have now received two certs. One a birth for Francis Gardner born in Hull 1851. Parents Francis Gardner - Waterman and mother Mary Johnson. I also received a death cert for this boy in 1862. He died in Hull trying to tie up the barge (his name on this cert is Francis Gardiner. Mary had two children died that year one Mary Elizabeth Gardiner in July and Francis in September. What a life they led.
I am at the moment ploughing my way through the 1851 census to find my Francis and Mary in Finkle Street. How I wish I had kept better records when I first started over 20 years ago. I must have seen this address or I would not have written it down. I have a copy of their marriage cert and it gives both their addresses as Finkle Street and I am wondering if when I was looking at actual records in Beverley at the time it gave their address as Beerhouse Finkle Street.
As we live on the south coast it will be some time before we can get back up north then I will check with the original records to see if the address was a Beerhouse on the original.
Thank you all for your help. I never thought I would get so much information. It has certainly given me some work to do.
Linda

Hi Linda, sorry about the acronym, as Margaret says, I should have said FindMyPast - I have just checked and they do not yet have the 1851 census online.

If you search for Francis Chew b 1811 on the 1851 Ancestry transcription, click for the image and scroll down the page, you get to 22 Finkle Street. The ref is Class: HO107; Piece: 2362; Folio: 111; Page: 47 (of 68).

Linda.
FMP is Find My Past. www.findmypast.com. It is a pay per view
.
On the records board
Find my past.......Mrs Tibbs offering to do look ups
Debs needs a change is the name she goes under.

Adding to Athena's info.
James Robert Gardiner married Mary Catherine Pybus 1857 sept qt Leeds gro ref 9b 329.

Also you say Francis Gardiners first wife was Sarah Pybus.The marriage 1846 June qt Pontefract. Was the Sarah Dyson on the same page as Francis Gardener ( note spelling)a mistake?


1841 census.
Sarah Pybus 1836 living Pontefract. Obviously too young to be married in 1846. She is working as a servant in 1851

Hello Ivy,

I know its late and I am tired but what is FMP?
I am not very up on the abreviations so look forward to reply.
Thank you for the help. Just to let you know Blanket Row is still there but there are no houses just new factories etc. I was in Hull at the weekend and drove past.
Regards Linda

Hi,

Just following up (partly) on the q abt Finkle Street Hull.

Putting this into Google comes up with a little map inset that identifies it as a street just off Blanket Row, fairly close to the centre of Hull.

Asking Ancestry to find anyone in 1881 (keywords Hull and Fink*) brings up 86 people in the Humber sub-district of Hull, ED 3.

Conveniently, the same district in 1851 includes Finkle Street. That ED is 68 pages long and Finkle Street is somewhere in the middle. Sadly, no time to look now - hope this is of some help.

(Or have FMP done this area of the 1851 census? It would be a much quicker way of looking!)

I'm fairly certain that Septimus would have been the seventh child. So from the 1861 image there is only one child missing which is probably the William who had already died.

Hello Athena
Thanks for the prompt reply. In answer to your question about the person I sent the certs, this was late last year and once this year. It was strange in as much as she was so keen to help. She even told which certs she had etc. Still we live and learn.
I will now look into the possibility of the USA just to see if my Francis did actually go there.
Thanks once again.
Linda

Hi Linda

I've now found the marriage of that 2nd pair of Francis/Mary and have them on the 1881 and 1891 Census - so, yes, I can see there are definitely two families. Gosh, talk about coincidences, eh? I wonder if the two chaps are related - cousins maybe?

Here's the census info I found, in case they end up being related to your family you might the info:

1881 - Pontefract, Yorks

Francis Gardiner, 48, Mariner
Mary Gardiner, 45, wife
Joseph Gardiner, 14, son, lad in bottle house
Emma A, 5, dau

1891 - Royal George Barge, Calverley

Francis Gardener, 57, capt Royal George
Mary Gardener, 56, wife
(there is a 15yr old "mate" on board but I can't read the name).

I can't find them on the 1861 census and as they only married in 1852 I'm not sure we'd find them together in 1851 (unless they were living together before marriage).

I didn't find any Francis/Mary's living in Finckle Str on the 1851, that you mentioned. I wonder where you found that info from?

I agree that it does seem strange how your Mary ended up having a child in New York between 1856-58. I wonder if they all went or just the parents or her alone? Maybe you could check to see if there are any archives of ships records from Hull to New York during those years and see if she and any of the others are listed.

Also, I wonder if you were to post a request on the Records Office board for a look-up on Ancestry USA to see if there is a birth listed for Joseph. I've never used the USA records so not sure what they hold.

That's a shame that your contact never got back to you to share the certs and info she had - seems very unfair. How long ago was it that you sent the stuff to her? Did she at least thank you for the info you supplied? I wonder why she didn't reciprocate. Ah well, you live and learn. Maybe next time you are in the same situation with a new family contact, just send a couple of bits at a time, wait until you get something back and then send a bit more. If you send it all in one go they then have no incentive to respond (if they are that way inclined - lazy or whatever). I don't know how people can be like that really.

Anyway, hope you manage to piece your tree together eventually -

best wishes - Athena

Hello Athena,
Thank you so much for your reply and information. I did not know of the death of Septimus so this is another cert I need to buy.
Firstly, There are definately two sets of Francis and Mary's. No I have not got the marriage for the Francis and Mary in Wakefield but they married in the Sept quarter in Wakefield and this is the next cert I will buy. I try to get two a months as I have so many to get. The Joseph who was born in USA is a problem though. I do not know how to try to get his birth cert. I cannot imagine my Francis and Mary going to USA with their other children as they were so poor. I have my Francis death cert. He died in Hull in 1884. I found the other Francis and Mary on the 1901 census living with their son Joseph and family.
One other thing you might have an answer to. I was not very good at keeping records when I started out years ago and have found a scribbled note saying there were two Francis and Marys living in Hull on the 1851 census. One living in Hanover Square which I can still find. /the other Francis and Mary living in Finkle Street Hull in a 'Beerhouse'. I must have seen this at some point but cannot find them now. I have tried all variations of the name Gardiner etc. Do you know if there is a way of looking up a Street in the 1851 census?
There is a decendent of my Francis still living in Hull and she was also doing the family history. I suggested we swap copies of certs to save money to which she agreed. I duly sent her at least 12 copies along with a coroners report on the death of Francis junior who died aged 11 (drowned whilst trying to tie up the barg) he fell in the Dock in Hull. She never sent me any copies and now does not reply to my emails. She is the great granddaughter of Catherine Gardiner born 1861 in Hull. At one point Lavinia her sister was living with them and she has her birth cert along with her great grandmothers birth cert. Still I now know not to send copies out.
Unfortunately my dad died 35 years ago and I was not into Family History then. He is the one who used to tell me about this uncle Septimus and that the family had at one time had 'money' and that one of the family ran away to USA with it all. There always seems to be a bit of truth in these stories.
Well thank you once again, if you do know how I could find the other Francis and Mary on the 1851 census I would be grateful.
Regards Linda

Another bit of useful info:

Death entry:

Name: Septimus Gardiner
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1861
Year of Registration: 1892
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at Death: 31
District: Hull (1854 Onw)
County: Yorkshire - East Riding, Humberside
Volume: 9d
Page: 178


1891 CENSUS:

Name: Septimus Gardner
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1861
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Sarah Am
Gender: Male
Where born: Hull, Yorkshire, England

Civil Parish: Holy Trinity
Ecclesiastical parish: St Barnabus
Town: Kingston Upon Hull
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Hull
Sub registration district: Myton
ED, institution, or vessel: 55
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Sarah Am Gardner 24
Septimus Gardner 30 Mariner Seas


Regards


Athena

Hi Linda

Well, I've been busy this morning trying to sort out the two families. From the list I've made below, I think we can clearly see two separate families - one registered their children in Hull the other in Pontefract. Yours are the Hull lot by the look of it. I've included a few that I stumbled across - may or may not be children of Francis/Mary - could be children of his brother James R as he was also living in Hull area, as you'll see below.

Francis Gardner - 1851 - Kingston upon Hull
Thomas [Barrett?] Gardiner - 1853 - Kingston upon Hull
John Wm Gardiner - 1855 - Hull (June qtr)
James Robert Gardner - 1855 - Hull (Dec qtr)
Septimus Gardiner - 1860 - Hull
Eliza Catherine Gardiner - 1862 - Hull
Francis James Gardiner - 1863 - Hull
Richard Gardiner - 1865 - Hull
James R Gardener - 1866 - Hull
William Gardiner - 1868 - Hull
Mary Ann Gardener - 1871 - Hull
Lavinia Gardener - 1872 - Hull

there were a few I couldn't locate - William Gardiner 1854 Hull and Kate 1866.


Thomas Johnson Gardiner - 1858 - Pontefract
John Thomas Gardiner - 1856/7 - Pontefract
Mary Elizabeth Gardiner - 1860 - Pontefract
Joe/Joseph Gardener - 1863 - Pontefract
Francis George Gardener - 1865 - Pontefract
Joseph Gardiner - 1867 - Pontefract
Ann Gardiner - 1868 - Pontefract


Also found this birth - the middle name caught my eye:

Sarah Pybus Gardiner - 1858 - Hull

Her father was probably a brother of your Francis (seeing as Francis named a son James R). Found her on 1861:


Name: Sarah P Gardiner
Age: 3
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1858
Relation: Granddaughter
Father's Name: James R
Mother's Name: Mary C
Gender: Female
Where born: Hull, Yorkshire, England

Civil Parish: Hull Holy Trinity
Town: Hull
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View Image

Registration district: Hull
Sub registration district: St Mary
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 78
Household Members: Name Age
James A Gardiner 1
James R Gardiner 24
Mary C Gardiner 24
Sarah P Gardiner 3
Catherine Hanson 65
Robinson Hanson 64

Anyway, I guess you will have to work your way through the birth certs for all the Hull children if you want to confirm parentage of each, although some of them are pretty certain to be your Francis and Mary's as we can tie them into the census info.

Hope that's helped.

Athena

Linda - yesterday in one of your posts you said that both couples were called Francis Gardiner and Mary (nee Johnson). I can see the marriage for 1850 for your couple - but could you confirm that you have found a marriage for the other couple because I couldn't see one when I looked on Ancestry. Have you purchased this other marriage cert? How do you know that the other Mary was also a Johnson?

Athena