Genealogy Chat

Can anyone help find Margaret Carney, she has just vanished in the 1901 census. She died in Dundee in 1934 aged 70 but in the census below her age doesn't change much. Not sure if she would be in Liverpool or in Scotland in the 1901 but can't find her anywhere.

Betty

1881:
Name: Margaret Carney
Age: 52
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1829
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Ireland

Civil Parish: Liverpool
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address: 150 Burlington St
Condition as to marriage: Widow

Occupation: Housekeeper

Registration district: Liverpool
Sub-registration district: St Martin
ED, institution, or vessel: 22
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Margaret Carney 52
Peter Carney 25 - hairdresser, Liverpool
Richard Carney 17 - hairdresser, Liverpool

1891

Name: Richard Carney
Age: 26
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1865
Relationship: Son
Mother's Name: Margaret
Gender: Male
Where born: Ireland
Registration Number: 644/11
Registration district: Hutchesontown
Civil Parish: Glasgow Govan
County: Lanarkshire
Address: 12 South York Street
Occupation: Barber

Roll: CSSCT1891_287
Household Members: Name Age
Margaret Carney 51
Richard Carney 26

It is late but the maths does not work

Died 1934 aged 70 makes year of birth approx 1864


Maureen

I know Maureen,

Somehow this woman managed to keep her age the same in various census.

I do have her death certificate aged 70 in 1934 but as i say on all the census she is a differnt age.

Betty

Then maybe it is different women with the same name??


Seriously I think you do have different women.


Margaret Carney died age 70 in 1934 (your note) .... estimated birth year is 1934 - 70 which = 1854

Margaret Carney on the 1881 Census was born in 1829 .............. which would have made her 105 in 1934.


But more important is the age of the sons.

If she was 70 in 1934, her birth year was approximately 1854.

But Richard the younger son was born about 1864 (1881 Census) ...... which means that the Margaret who died in 1934 age 70 would have been 10 or 11 years old.

Even worse, the elder son Richard was born about 1856 (1881 Census) ..... which means he is about the same age as the Margaret who died in 1934.

I think you need to look at your research again!


sylvia

Hi Sylvia and Reggie,

Thanks for you comments re Margaret Carney. The main problem is I do have Margaret Carney's death record in 1934 from Scotland People and she is aged 70 on the death certificate. This was my great grandmother and the person who registered her death was my Grandfather, I don't think he would have known what age Margaret was when she died!!
However I do know this was her death as it states my grandfather as her son-in-law.
Margaret's husband Nicholas died in Glasgow in 1911 aged 57.

Reggie:- Margaret and Nicholas married in Befast Antrim on 28/05/1875 no ages are given on the marriage details.

Maybe there is something wrong somewhere in the census or my grandfather just put down what he thought her age was as he didn't really know my great grandmother at all..

Some of the children were born in Ireland, some in Liverpool and some in Lanark Scotland.

Betty

Hi Reg,

No my grandmother told us she came to Lanark, thats where she met my grandfather who had left Dundee to work in the coal mines in Glasgow. She and her sister Catherine Carney married in Dundee.

The came back to Dundee and married in 1903 when she was aged 23.

Betty

Betty


things just do not add up at all



Your grandfather may not have known the actual age of his mother ............... but he surely would know if she was 107!


Like Reggie, I cannot see that you have the same woman on the census as you have on the death certificate.

But you do not seem to be able to see what we are saying ..... or see the impossibility of making a 37 year error in the age of an old woman.


sylvia

Betty,

If they married in 1875, how do you explain the sons Richard and Peter who were born in the 50s and 60s?

I'm assuming you were looking for a Nicholas and Margaret Carney and have adopted the above as yours.

What about this?

1901 Scotland Census
about Nicholas Carney
Name: Nicholas Carney
Age: 53
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848
Relationship: Head
Spouse's name : Margerite
Gender: Male
Where born: England
Registration Number: 426
Registration district: Dysart
Civil Parish: Dysart
Town: Dysart
County: Fife
Address: 3 Dovecot Crescent
Occupation: General Labourer
ED: 3
Page: 14 (click to see others on page)
Household schedule number: 71
Line: 8
Roll: CSSCT1901_137
Household Members: Name Age
Agnes Carney 15
Francis Carney 6
Joseph Carney 4
Margerite Carney 47
Margerite a Carney 21
Nicholas Carney 53
Nicholas Carney 14
Patrick Carney 11
Teresa Carney 16

Rose

Hi Christine,Sylvia and Rose,

I am going to post all that I know about this Carney Family it would make it easier to understand, thanks for your messages, sorry but came on computer late, had to sort out things for my ill hubby, it takes hours to do.

Betty

Nicholas Carney who was also a Master Hairdresser they call it is my great grandfather and his wife Margaret Carney my great grandmother.

I have their marriage in Belfast Antrim but no ages are give on the marriage details!!.
as below in 1875:-
Field Value
Type Marriages
Date Of Marriage 28/05/1875
Husband Firstname NICHOLAS
Husband Surname KEARNEY
Husband Townland / Street MILLFIELD
Husband Occupation
Husband Age
Husband Denomination Roman Catholic
Husband Marital Status
Husband Father Firstname NICHOLAS
Husband Father Surname KEARNEY
Husband Father Occupation
Husband Mother Firstname MARGARET
Husband Mother Surname
Husband Witness Firstname LUKE
Husband Witness Surname MCCANN
Wife Firstname MARGARET
Wife Surname KENNEDY
Wife Townland / Street MILLFIELD
Wife Occupation
Wife Age
Wife Denomination Roman Catholic
Wife Marital Status
Wife Father Firstname JAMES
Wife Father Surname KENNEDY
Wife Father Occupation
Wife Mother Firstname MARY
Wife Mother Surname
Wife Witness Firstname ELIZABETH
Wife Witness Surname MCSHANE
Denomination
Comment REV J ONEILL œ1 0 0.
Street ST MARY'S Roman Catholic
Town BELFAST
Area SHANKILL CARNMONEY
County CO ANTRIM


I also have my grandmother Mary Carney and her sister Catherine Carney
baptisms but GRONI dont have their births or the marriage of their parents register, I paid for searches of all three, the marriage the births etc.
Someone looked up the baptism of my gran Mary Carney and Catherine Carney in St Marys RC church in Belfast, here is the info:-

Baptisms!!
7/12/1878 Mary Kearney aged 3 weeks.
Parents Nicholas Kearney & Margaret Kennedy, North Street. Note the sponsor
is MARGARET KEARNEY? (Not too far from Smithfield).
Also Catherine Kearney to Same parents address Divis St..(27/12/1880

As you can see the name Carney was Kearney in Ireland but it is the correct family!!

I have both the marriages of Mary Carney and Catherine Carney in Dundee and also the death of Nicholas Carney the father is Lanarkshire in 1911 aged 57 in 1911, and the mother Margaret Carney who died in Dundee in Dundee in 1934 aged 70. I also have my grandmothers death details and a picture of her gravestone.

So I have a lot of information and other people on GR are also related, most of the men in the family were hairdressers or barbers, only Nicholas was a Master hairdresser. I know Nicholas went back and forward to Ireland, Liverpool and Lanarkshire in the end.

My problem is finding the family while in Liverpool as I don't have Ancestry and they didn't come to Scotland until later, cant find them in the 1901 is Scotland so will have to wait until 1911 census I think.
Should have said my grandmothers sister Catherine was my aunt Mary's mother so I know this is my grans sister

I think the Carney's on the 1891 census are...

Margaret Carney (maiden surname Williams) who married Nicholas Carney.

They had a son Richard Carney who was born in Belfast 31st May 1864.

Hi Big Shaz,

The Margaret Carney who was married to Nicholas Carney, her maiden name was Kennedy.

I am not the only one on GR who is confused with this Carney family, other people have Nicholas's brother or sons and they also can't find information on them in Liverpool or Scotland.

Really appreciate your help!

Betty

Betty I found a birth for Richard Carney in Belfast in 1865 to Nicholas Carney and Margaret Williams.

I have found Richard on the 1901 census with his wife Mary Ellen and 5 children living in Govan and Occupation Hairdresser.

Shaz

Hi Shaz,
Thanks for the information, someone else on GR has that Richard Carney in their family tree but the said the mothers name was Kennedy!! They contacted me as they said they were related to my Carney.

Betty

Hi again Shaz,

I also have the death in Glasgow of that Richard Carney aged 53 in 1919. His parents are listed as Nicholas Carney Master hairdresser and Margaret Ann Carney maiden name Hamilton deceased.

Betty

The plot thickens......

Although it wouldn't be the first time I've seen maiden surnames given wrongly by informants.

OH's Great Grandfather gave his Grandmothers maiden name instead of his mothers on his marriage lines... He was the only one to do that.

My own 2xGreat Grandfather must have been drunk when he was the informant at the registration of his first childs birth..... when asked for mother (of the babys) name he gave his own mothers name and maiden name instead of his wifes.

And yes ages get written down wrong too.

But when all thats said I think the fact that your Nicholas and Margaret married in Belfast in 1875 just makes it higly unlikely that the Margaret you have found on the census' are the same person.

How could they be? Did Margaret really have an adult son and a teenager in 1881 when she had only been married since 1875.... also your Grandmother was baptised in 1878 and her sister Catherine in 1880? So where are they in 1881? If the census you have, is as you believe, your Margaret then where are her two baby girls?

This really is complicated.... What does it say on your Grandmother and her sisters marriage cert? Obviously it has Kennedy as Margaret's maiden name but what does it say for fathers occupation?

Sorry Shaz,

I didn't see your post on the marriage certificates it says Mother Margaret Carney, maiden name Kennedy and father Nicholas Carney Hairdresser.

Betty

Info on all the Carney hairdressers in the Irish Newspaper!!

An article in Morning News

Belfast National Committee News 18th March 1891
Belfast national Committee in the Sustainment of the Irish Parliamentary Party
Has:-
Thos Carney, 21 Smithfield
Richd Carney, 21Smithfield
N J Carney 16 Whitehall Court

I also found Nicholas Carney in Short Strand in another search of the Lennon Wylie 1880 street directories!!

In the 1907 Belfast/Ulster Street Directory
there are still 3 Carney Hairdresser!! But no Nicholas Carney either!!
Carney, Richard hairdresser, 10 Ancrum Road.
Carney, Thos. hairesser, 16a Ormeau Road.
Carney, W, hairdresser, 21 Smithfield.

Betty

But I still think that there are two families of Margaret Carney with sons Richard and Peter ................ one much earlier in time than the other.

You have all that information that pans out ...... but the Margaret Carney on the two censuses you are citing is NOT the Margaret Carney of your family.

She just cannot be ............. the birth year is completely wrong.

It is not just a matter of someone being 5 or 10 years out between 2 censuses .................. there is almost 40 years difference.

AND your Margaret was apparently born about the same year as the Peter Carney of the census was born. Impossible!!


I think you have to go back to the census and look again. These are not your family ..... and that is NOT negating the information you have collected from elsewhere. Just this last step is wrong.


sylvia

Betty,

I think this is the marriage for the Margaret Carney you found on the 1881 & 1891 census.

Marriages Mar 1852 (>99%)

Carney Nicholas Liverpool 8b 440
Wiliams Margret Liverpool 8b 440
Williams Margret Liverpool 8b 440

Here they are on the 1861 census with their four sons Nicholas, Peter, Thomas & William.


1861 England Census
about Nichs Carney
Name: Nichs Carney
Age: 7
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1854
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Nicholas
Mother's Name: Margt
Gender: Male
Where born: Liverpool

Civil Parish: Liverpool
Ecclesiastical parish: St Matthias
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View Image

Registration district: Liverpool
Sub-registration district: St Martin
ED, institution, or vessel: 47
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 96
Household Members: Name Age
Margt Carney 34
Nicholas Carney 41
Nichs Carney 7
Peter Carney 4
Thos Carney 2
William Carney 14
Margt Deran 14
Hugh Mc Kenna 38

It looks like this Nicholas, born in 1854, is the one who married Margaret Kennedy in 1875, meaning both his mother and his wife are called Margaret Carney.

At the time of the 1881/1891 censuses he would still be in Ireland with his wife Margaret, so the one you found in England is for his Mother and brothers.

I can't find them in 1901, so perhaps they did not come over from Ireland until after the census was taken?

The older Margaret Carney, born c1827, does not show up in 1901. As she was 70+ by then she may well have died. Have you checked deaths in Scotland for a Margaret Carney 1891-1901?

Hi Christina,

The death of Margaret Carney in 1934 at the age of 70 was in Dundee.

Her husband is listed as Nicholas Carney hairdresser. The person who register the death was my grandfather and it is noted on the death details that he is the son-in-law.

I also did a search on Scotlands People for deaths of any Margaret Carney between 1891 and 1901 and these are all that came up:-


No Year Surname / Maiden Name Forename Mother's Surname Other Surnames Sex Age District City/County/MR GROS Data Image Extract
1 1892 CARNEY MARGARET F 0 CAMPSIE /STIRLING 475/00 0088 VIEW (5 CREDITS) ORDER
2 1893 CARNEY MARGARET F 0 AIRDRIE OR NEW MONKLAND /LANARK 651/01 0442 VIEW (5 CREDITS) ORDER
3 1893 CARNEY MARGARET F 3 DENNISTOUN GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 644/03 0905 VIEW (5 CREDITS) ORDER
4 1901 CARNEY MARGARET F 4 CALTON GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 644/04 0190 VIEW (5 CREDITS) ORDER


Betty