Genealogy Chat

Sorry about the mass of info. Was trying to cover all the info to avoid lots of questions to and fro.

Have sent a PM.

Thanks and regards,

Selena

Hi Selena

Wow - a lot of info you have there - well done in getting thus far!
I am off home in 10 mins so will have a proper read through it all tomorrow and give you any thoughts I have on it.

One thing I wanted to ask (I haven't had time to check the census images for myself) - on the census pages for William Bateman does it list him as deaf throughout them all?

I know we have the 1851 entry showing a William Bateman as deaf - just wanting to make sure that the William who married Frances is the same chap and not a cousin.

I have been wondering if there were two Williams one with a father named James William, the other with a father William James.

As I said, I've not had time to read and digest all of this so I could be wrong. Will get back to you tomorrow via PM.

Bye for now - Athena

In connection to the Urquhart christening you found:

MARTHA BATEMAN URQUHART
marriages
Spouse: WILLIAM MARK WILLSON Family
Marriage: 09 DEC 1834 Saint Dunstan, Stepney, London, England

1881 Jane Ranoe (mistranscribed), formerly Bateman, born Johnson. With her 2nd husband.

Richard RANVE Head M Male 58 Blackheath, Kent, England Smiths Hammerman
Jane L. RANVE Wife M Female 60 London City Of, London, Middlesex, England Nurse
Richard RANVE Son M Male 29 Blackheath, Kent, England Farrier
Priscilla GREGORY Grandaur Female 15 Deptford, Kent, England Domestic Servant

Priscilla is the daughter of Maria Bateman and Jesse Gregory. Maria is on the 1851 age 8.

Here is Jane on the 1861 with her 2nd husband. Her daughters Annie and Maria have taken their stepfather's surname
Annie Ranoe abt 1847 Bermondsey, Surrey, England Daughter Deptford St Paul Kent
>>Jane Ranoe abt 1822 London City Wife Deptford St Paul Kent
John Ranoe abt 1854 Greenwich, Kent, England Son Deptford St Paul Kent
Maria Ranoe abt 1843 Bermondsey, Surrey, England Daughter Deptford St Paul Kent
Richard Ranoe abt 1826 Lewisham, Kent, England Head Deptford St Paul Kent
Richard Ranoe abt 1852 Greenwich, Kent, England Son Deptford St Paul Kent

1851 Essex Place, Rotherhithe?
Jane Bateman, head, widow, 40 charwoman, born Surrey St Olaves
William, son, 15 born St Olaves, deaf
Maria, daug 8,
Ann, dau, 3

1851 above them (next door) her future husband
Sarah Ranoe, head, widow, 62, born Greenwich,
Richard, son, 26, labourour, born Lewisham

April 1851 Marriage cert of Richard Ranoe (batchelor) and Jane Louisa Bateman (widow) her father Richard Johnson (book/bark cutter)

1847 birth cert of Ann Bateman, father James William John Bateman, tinsman and Braziar, mother Jane Louisa Bateman, formally Johnson

1841 Maria Street, Shoreditch Tower Hamlets
William Bateman, 20, printer
Jane, 25
William 3
James 1
Next door Samuel E Bateman and Charlotte (connection unknown)

1834 marriage on IGI James William John Bateman to Jane Louisa Johnson as previously mentioned. Another kind member looked this up at LMA, witness was Richard Johnson.

IGI birth Jane Louisa Johnson Jul 1810, parents Richard & Mary Johnson

1871 Deptford
Frances Bateman, 29, widow head, Deptford
Richard, 5
Charles 3

1870 death cert Deptford, William Bateman, age 35, Bricklayers labourer. Informant Jane Ranoe. (this is his mother born Jane Louisa Johnson, she remarried – see below)

1870 death cert Deptford, Frances Ann Bateman, daughter of William Bateman bricklayers labourer, informant Jane Ranoe

1865 birth cert Richard James Bateman, Deptford, father William James Bateman bricklayers Labourer, mother Frances Bateman formerly Perkins.

1867 birth cert Charles BAITMAN, Hackney, father William James Baitman (bricklayer), mother Frances Baitman, formerly Perkins,

1861 Collier Street, Deptford
William Bateman, head, 28? Bricklayers labourer, born Southwhark
Frances, wife, 20, born Deptford
Frances A, dau, 21 months?

1861 Above them (next door) is Frances’ mother and family
Ann Perkins, widow
Harriet, dau, 12
James, son, 10
William, son 8

Marriage cert Nov 1859 Deptford William James Bateman to Frances Perkins, full age, Willliam is a labourer, his father is William James Bateman, Waterman

1901 Hosier Street, Deptford
Charles W Bateman, head, 35 born Deptford
Caroline, wife, 29
Annie, dau 9
Alice, dau 9 months?
Jessie, 3
Louisa, age 1

1891 Brightfield Rd, Lee, Lewisham
Charles Bateman, head, 24? labourer, born Deptford
Caroline, wife, 21 charwoman, born Sutton Surrey
Annie, dau 5 months, born Lee Kent

1888 Marriage Cert Charles Bateman (22) to Caroline Charlotte Shell (19) Deptford, his father William Bateman deceased Labourer

1881 Deptford
Charles Baleman (mistranscribed) 14 Deptford
Charles Bromley, widow, 29 (this is his widowed Stepfather)
Etc

1880 Death Cert of Frances Bromley, Deptford, Age 33, wife of Charles Bromley

1879 marriage cert Frances Bateman (widow) to Charles Bromley (one witness is R. Ranoe) you will see R Ranoe is her step father in law on previous marriage.

Athena many thanks for the offer of help, its really appreciated. You may regret it though, understandably!

I am posting everything I have, will do it in two or three chunks. I would appreciate a second pair of eyes.

Selena


Hope

Hi Selena

Just been refreshing my memory on this one. Thanks for updating us.

From the info on the birth cert, stating that James Bateman was a tinsman/brazier in 1847, I find it difficult to believe that this man became a waterman in the few years before he died. Watermen had to serve an apprenticeship, as mentioned previously. It doesn't really ring true, to me.

Could it possibly be that the marriage cert you have for a William Bateman stating his father was William James Bateman a Waterman, be the wrong cert for your family?

I'd like to help you with this, if possible, but I think I'd need to start further up the branch and see what info you have going backwards from 1901 and what the connection is to that family, just to ensure that you've not somehow got two different families mixed up onto your tree.

The offer is there if you'd like me to have a look over it all for you. If you want to do this via PM's, that's fine with me.

Regards - Athena

Hello Athena and everyone. I received the certificate of Ann Bateman today.

b1847 Grange Road Bermonsey. Father James William John Bateman, mother Jane Louisa Bateman, formerly Johnson.

Father's profession Tinsman and Brazier (I think).

Its the right man but I don't know how this helps me at present. Maybe I'm not thinking clearly.

Any thoughts very welcome,

Selena


PS Do you think the following are two different people?

Deaths Jun 1849
Bateman James Bermondsey 4 8
Bateman James Mexted Bermondsey 4 1

Many thanks Athena, I will give you an update when the certificate arrives.

Selena

Hi Selena

This looks interesting for a possible death of your James Bateman, seeing as you have ordered a birth cert for Ann 1847 Bermondsey - I found this death entry for Bermondsey:

James Bateman
June qtr, 1849
Bermondsey vol 4 pg 8

Worth adding to your list of certs to order at some point if you haven't already?

Strangely, underneath that entry was another entry for a James Mexted Bateman, same year and district - but that's a very strange middle name and I'm not sure if this is just a mistranscription of something else. We know that your James didn't have that as a middle name, anyhow. So the first entry would be a safer bet I would say.

Must dash now - will be interested to see what transpires from all of this - and if once you get the cert through you are still stuck or unsure and want a 2nd opinion, feel free to PM me any time. Always glad to help if I can.

Take care - Athena

Thanks Athena, I am just logging on briefly as I am in work at present. I will have a think through about the Marylebone connection.

My initial problem is his first name: James on marriage but William on census. I'm sure it's the right family as I have followed Jane right through to the 1880's with her grandchildren and her second marriage (incidently it was to Richard Ranoe, next door neighbour on the 1851 also deaf). She also was the informant on her son William's death in 1870 age 35 (again no birth record found for him ).

I have ordered the birth cert of Ann Bateman 1847. The family seem to have moved to Deptford/Greenwich between 1847 to 1851 and stayed there until post 1930.

Will get back to the thread later this afternoon, many thanks again

back to work now,
Selena

Hi Selena

Came back to this thread as I found it quite an interesting one to work on yesterday.

In answer to your question as to why there were no children between 1834 and 1838 - there could be two possibilities here, I think.

The obvious one is that perhaps there was a child or two born between this time who consequently died as infants.

Checking the IGI I can see that there is a Jane Bateman b 21 June 1837, Marylebone, to parents James Bateman and Jane. Could this have been your couple's earlier child? Adding weight to this is the fact that there is also a birth registration on the GRO indexes for a James Bateman b1840 Marylebone (is this the 1yr old child showing on the 1841 census perhaps?). You could order that cert and if it turns out to be your Bateman family, it is then easier to tie up the 1837 birth of Jane to this family.

The other possibility is that, if when the couple married James believed himself to be "under-age" they may well have waited until he was "of age" to start a family. Again, reading through various history books I have found mention of various cases of young teens getting married, say at 13 or 14 yrs, but not having their first child until they were over 21yrs.

Just some food for thought.

Also - re Samuel Bateman - it's possible that this man could even have been an uncle. If we assume for now that the baptism entry found earlier is the correct one (Father James Urquhart, Mother Maria Bateman) then because "Bateman" was his mother's surname, Samuel could quite easily have been her younger brother or cousin even. Not necessarily that Samuel was an older brother of James - there doesn't appear to be a baptism for a Samuel Batemen with mother named Maria, anyway.

sorry, hope I'm not confusing the issue. I tend to think aloud LOL

Athena

Ben, thanks, been having a play with it!

Selena

Hi Selena

Go into FamilySearch, then click on the "International Genealogical Index" search feature, then type in the parents names, and select region, which is British Isles then England the London Greater. Dont type in the childrens names, leave them blank, just type in the parents names and surname. If you are unsure, just ask?

Ben

Hello Benjamin, thanks for responding. Samuel Bateman is 30 on the 1841. He is with Charlotte age 26, who I think might be his sister as I have tried to solve this problem before on the boards a couple of years ago.

Samuel appears to be an undertaker.

Not sure how to do a parent search on the igi? Hey - just learnt how to do it!

Hi Selena

People usually had relatives living nearby. I have some Bermondsey ancestors but unfortunately St Mary Magdalen is only indexed from 1801 on the IGI as my rellie was born there in 1776, well the rough year of birth. Have you got Samuel Bateman's age in 1841 as I could look him up for you on the 1851? What was his 1841 occupation? You could always do a "Parent search" on the IGI.

Have you checked any Samuel and William Bateman births to the same parentage?

Here is a possible Samuel Bateman birth for you to go on.

SAMUEL THOMAS BATEMAN
Male

Event(s):
Birth:
13 DEC 1802
Christening:
03 JAN 1803 Saint Leonards, Shoreditch, London, England
Death:
Burial:

Parents:
Father: SAMUEL BATEMAN Family
Mother: SARAH

Ben

One last thought, I would have thought that Jane would have had some children between her marriage in 1834 and what seems to be her first child William in 1838 ish.

Puzzled,

Selena

Off home in a min too - best wishes with your searches.

Athena