Find Ancestors

There you go! You can do it. ;)

Joiner = carpenter. Same thing.

Farmdale Road, Greenwich, where Thomas Hy Roberts was living in 1891 -- the one I was looking at up there -- is within a few blocks of the docks. They were still there in 1901, and in 1901 he's actually called "carpenter & joiner".

I'm convinced to a virtual certainty that he's Thomas H, son of Evan!!

elizabeth ethel roberts 16 03 1899 -- registered 2nd quarter:

Name: Elizabeth Ethel Roberts
Year of Registration: 1899
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: West Derby
County: Lancashire
Volume: 8b
Page: 507


Might her mother's death not also have been registered 2nd quarter?

Name: Ellen Roberts
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848
Year of Registration: 1899
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
Age at Death: 51
District: West Derby
County: Lancashire
Volume: 8b
Page: 256

Name: Jane Roberts
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1873
Year of Registration: 1899
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
Age at Death: 26
District: West Derby
County: Lancashire
Volume: 8b
Page: 244

Name: Mary Roberts
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1876
Year of Registration: 1899
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
Age at Death: 23
District: West Derby
County: Lancashire
Volume: 8b
Page: 218


If you think your EER could be the one registered (late) in Conway, then

Name: Elizabeth Ann Roberts
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1855
Year of Registration: 1899
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at Death: 44
District: Conway (To 1937)
County: Caernarvonshire, Denbighshire
Volume: 11b
Page: 380

could be the right one -- she matches up with the 1881 wife of Thomas H in Liverpool, age-wise.


And you know, both those Elizabeths -- 1881 and 1891/1901, if they're different -- could have been wives of the same Thomas H, and still living -- he might simply have run off to London, leaving the first one behind, and hooked up with the second one.

Which would mean that the first one might be the mother of EER, but Thomas H would not have been her father.


She might have been this one in 1891, for example:


Name: Elizabeth Roberts
Age: 38
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1853
Relation: Wife >>> no husband present
Gender: Female
Where born: Liverpool

Civil Parish: Liverpool
Ecclesiastical parish: St Bartholomew
Town: Liverpool
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: Liverpool
Sub-registration district: Howard Street
ED, institution, or vessel: 3

David Roberts 6
Edward Roberts 10
Elizabeth Roberts 38
Elizabeth Roberts 16
James Roberts 14
Mary Roberts 12
Richard Roberts 3/12
Robert Roberts 19 -- born just after 1881 census?


Those kids are split up in 1901:


Name: David Roberts
Age: 14
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1887
Relation: Brother
Gender: Male
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Liverpool
Ecclesiastical parish: St Albans
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: Liverpool
Sub-registration district: St Martin
ED, institution, or vessel: 22
Household schedule number: 340

Edward Roberts 20
Alice Roberts 20 - wife
David Roberts 14


Name: Richard Roberts
Age: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1890
Relation: Visitor
Gender: Male
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: West Derby
Ecclesiastical parish: St John the Baptist
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: West Derby
Sub-registration district: West Derby, Eastern
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Household schedule number: 79

Robert Roberts 44 - visitor - probably father of children ... hmm ...
Bertha Williams 23
Elizabeth Williams 6 months
Richard Roberts 11
John Williams 24
John Williams 2


for example. Kinda like ... if their mother had died.


Do you suppose there's any chance that Elizabeth's *name* was Ireland, and not that she was *from* Ireland???


Marriages Dec 1879
Emmes Susan West Derby 8b 685
Ireland Elizabeth W. Derby 8b 685
Roberts Robert West Derby 8b 685
Sullivan Thomas W. Derby 8b 685


In 1881:


Name: Robert Roberts
Age: 35
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1846
Relation: Lodger
Gender: Male
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Liverpool
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address: 6 Liscard Buildings
Condition as to marriage: Married <<<
Occupation: Boiler Maker

Registration district: Liverpool
Sub-registration district: St Martin
ED, institution, or vessel: 34

Ann Cunnah 60
Samuel Grimshaw 29
George Kindle 33
Richard Rankin 45
Sarah H. Riley 16
Robert Roberts 35


The Robert Roberts in 1901 is an engineer, marine ... but oh crap, he's recorded as married.


And heck, I wonder whether your EER's mother really died, or everybody just said she did ...

For one thing, she could just have been the child of an unmarried daughter or granddaughter of Evan Roberts.

Eer was an only child

Thomas h was listed as joiner 1871 census

but in my bography he is described as..ships carpenter..so maybe he was on the high seas and married later when returned to dry land.

Have asked santa for eers cert, he says its in the post but any donations gratefully recieved as has all your input. thank you..vivienne

ps hope that was better!

Do you actually know where your Thomas H Roberts was in 1891?

I think this might be him:


Name: Thomas H Y Roberts (Hy, =Henry, obviously)
Age: 35
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1856
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Elizabeth A
Gender: Male
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Occupation: Carpenter <<<

Name: Elizabeth A Roberts
Age: 34
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1857
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Thomas H Y
Gender: Female
Where born: Ibstone, Oxfordshire, England (??)

Civil Parish: Greenwich
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch
County/Island: London
Country: England

Registration district: Greenwich
Sub-registration district: Greenwich East
ED, institution, or vessel: 17

Elizabeth A Roberts 34
Elizabeth A Roberts 7
Henry E Roberts 8
Herbert C Roberts 4
Thomas H Y Roberts 35
Thomas W Roberts 6
Walter F Roberts 2


The kids were all born after 1881, in Plumstead/Greenwich.

And they're all alive and well in 1901:

Elizth A Roberts 19
Elizth C Roberts 43
Henry E Roberts 18
Herbert C Roberts 14
Thomas H Roberts 43
Thomas W Roberts 16
Walter F Roberts 11


But you know, I really do think that is probably the Thomas H Roberts, son of Evan, in the 1871 household.

And so I think that your theory that the Thomas H Roberts, son of Evan, in the 1871 household, is the father of your EER is probably wrong.


If I'm right, this would likely be the birth of Thomas H Roberts, son of Evan:

Name: Thomas Henry Roberts
Year of Registration: 1853
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Liverpool (1837-1934)
County: Lancashire
Volume: 8b
Page: (have to check image for page number)


The discrepancy between the Thomas H in 1881 and the Thomas H in 1891 and 1901 is that, while both have wife Elizabeth, the 1881 Elizabeth was born c1855 in Denbyshire and the 1891/1901 Elizabeth was born c1857/8 in Oxfordshire. They could actually be two different people, two marriages.


Spend the dough. Get EER's birth certificate. We can take up a collection!

Vivienne -- the Thomas H Roberts, son of Evan, who was 17 in 1871 would have been born 1853-54 -- a little old to be the parent of a child born in 1899?

Is he this one?

Name: Thomas Hughes Roberts
Year of Registration: 1853
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: St Asaph
County: Denbighshire, Flintshire
Volume: 11b
Page: 326


If so, it looks like this marriage I copied above is his:

Marriages Dec 1874
BRADSHAW Elizabeth Helen W.Derby 8b 601
Cook John W. Derby 8b 601
LEWIS Mary Jane W. Derby 8b 601
Roberts Thomas Hughes W. Derby 8b 601

and they would be the people referred to by feralcat (I get what you were saying now, I think!):

"1881 Census
Thomas H Roberts was living with his wife Elizabeth at 22 Dalkeith Street, Toxteth Park, Liverpool. Occupation, Joiner. Elizabeth was born in Denbighshire, Wales c1855."


... except that one says born in Liverpool -- which is what Thomas H, son of Evan, says in 1871.

Maybe this is the Thomas Hughes Roberts born in 1853:


Name: Thomas H. Roberts
Age: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1854
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Eliz. Helen
Gender: Male
Where born: Wales

Civil Parish: Great Crosby
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address: 40 Murat St
Condition as to marriage: Married
Occupation: General Clerk In Wine & Spirit Trade

Registration district: West Derby
Sub-registration district: Crosby
ED, institution, or vessel: 3

John H. Barker 21
Chas. E. Linacre 19
Eliz. Helen Roberts 29
Herbert G. Roberts 4
Thomas H. Roberts 27



I guess you know that the household with Thomas H Roberts, son of Evan, in 1871 is yours, because of the Ann Roberts Mcdougall connection ...


In any event, given how old he was, why would he not have been married loooong before 1899?

And I *still* don't know the answer to my very first question:

I can't find any Thomas Roberts marriage, last quarter, West Derby. Where did you get the info?


And yes, Vivienne, you can do tidy writing. All you do is hit the "enter" key twice when you get to the end of a thought. So your post would look like this, and would actually be comprehensible:

-------------------------------------------

Yes feralcat the above people were elizabeth ethel roberts aunt and uncle who brought her up

and kathryn b your census 1901 is her with them

and i have now def ruled out all annie mcdougall nee brothers as eers father except thomas h roberts

and can only find 2 candidates for mother died 1899 1stquarter

margaret jane roberts age 25 liverpool

or elizabeth ann roberts conway age 44 [findmypast]

and i know she was irish from biography of family but the author only left me surnames mcdougall and roberts

and eer.s cousins edward annie amy and edith[ as 1901 census]

and"The criccieth welsh aunts"

oh and the irish aunt katie whom the now deceased author[eer.s daughter] met in london during the 2nd world war.

still cant do tidy writing sorry folks but hope this helps if not will wait til i get eer.sbirth cert.

thanks vivienne.

----------------------------------------------

So if Elizabeth Ann Roberts was 44 when she died, she looks like a candidate to be the wife of Thomas H Roberts who would have been about 45 in 1899. But they could have married anytime ...

Yes feralcat the above people were elizabeth ethel roberts aunt and uncle who brought her up and kathryn b your census 1901 is her with them and i have now def ruled out all annie mcdougall nee brothers as eers father except thomas h roberts and can only find 2 candidates for mother died 1899 1stquarter margaret jane roberts age 25 liverpool or elizabeth ann roberts conway age 44 [findmypast]and i know she was irish from biography of family but the author only left me surnames mcdougall and roberts and eer.s cousins edward annie amy and edith[ as 1901 census]and"The criccieth welsh aunts"oh and the irish aunt katie whom the now deceased author[eer.s daughter] met in london during the 2nd world war.still cant do tidy writing sorry folks but hope this helps if not will wait til i get eer.sbirth cert.thanks vivienne.

Was this the Edward B McDougall who married Annie Roberts in St George's, Everton (that's in Liverpool) in 1884?

Thomas H. had a sister Ann around the same age.

Just a thought, not a guess, though. :-)

From the 'cursed' feralcat. lol

aaaaaaargh.

Yes, it did look a little too neat and tidy to be Vivienne's handiwork. ;)

I wave at Vivienne from where I lie fitfully sleeping as she sups her morning caffeine.

And I curse feralcat!!!!

Kathryn B

That was feralcat that posted that info.lol.

Sue

The 1901 household, again for ref (as transcribed by Ancestry):


Name: Elizabeth Roberts
Age: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1899
Relation: Niece
Gender: Female
Where born: Seaforth, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Seaforth
Ecclesiastical parish: Seaforth St Thomas
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: West Derby
Sub-registration district: Crosby
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Household schedule number: 272

Amy McDougald 15
Annie McDougald 39
Annie McDougald 9
Edith McDougald 3
Edward McDougald 41
Edward McDougald 7
Elizabeth Roberts 2

Muddies the waters. Aren't you trying to find out for sure who the parents of Elizabeth Ethel Roberts born 1897 were?

If you're only *guessing* that it was Thomas H Roberts born sometime before 1871, how does this help?

And Vivienne, you started out by saying that Thomas H Roberts got married in ***1897***. Now you say he was living with his wife Elizabeth in 1881.

And you said his wife Elizabeth (whom he supposedly married in 1897?) may have been from Ireland, and now you say she was born in Denbighshire.

I, for one, am now completely lost.

And I still have no idea why you think he's the father of Elizabeth Ethel Roberts!

The 1871 household, just for ref:

John Morris 21
Margaret Morris 27
Owen Paul 22
Anne Roberts 10
Daniel Roberts 15
Ellen Roberts 48
Evan Roberts 50
Evan Roberts 8
John Roberts 13
Mary E Roberts 20
Thomas H Roberts 17
William Roberts 5


Here's your 1880 marriage, from FreeBMD, which seems to have more detail:


Marriages Sep 1880
Roberts Elizabeth W. Derby 8b 679
Roberts Thomas Humphrey W. Derby 8b 679


But how do you know, for instance, that he wasn't Thomas Hughes Roberts, who might have married this Elizabeth?


Marriages Dec 1874
BRADSHAW Elizabeth Helen W.Derby 8b 601
Cook John W. Derby 8b 601
LEWIS Mary Jane W. Derby 8b 601
Roberts Thomas Hughes W. Derby 8b 601


Okay, Elizabeth Roberts is more likely to be from Wales than Elizabeth Bradshaw, but still -- do you have the 1880 marriage certificate? How can you know that it was the son of Evan who married in 1880 without it?

And what does this 1897 marriage you started with have to do with anything???


There's no Thomas Humphrey Roberts born around 1854, around Liverpool. Sure, he could have been registered as just Thomas Roberts ...


Fixing to start tearing hair out, I'm afraid!

1871 Census,
Thomas H Roberts was living with his parents at 43 Vickers Street, Toxteth Park, Liverpool. Occupation, Joiner. His father Evan was born in Carmarthenshire, Wales.

1881 Census
Thomas H Roberts was living with his wife Elizabeth at 22 Dalkeith Street, Toxteth Park, Liverpool. Occupation, Joiner. Elizabeth was born in Denbighshire, Wales c1855.

LancashireBMD
1880. Thomas H Roberts married Elizabeth ROBERTS at St Michael's, Toxteth Park, Liverpool. Ref: 2068TP/13/71

Hope this helps, or does it just muddy the water?

Yes but Vivienne -- do you have the *certificate* of her marriage, showing her father's name??

All this guessing and puzzling out -- her father's name should be right there on the certificate!

ok kathryn last last post yes she married frederick mather b1896newcastle upon tyne lancashire in west derby 1stq.1924 not soft just dont like jack frost.

last post to all you good people . her fathers family came from conway so thats confusing me also she changed her first names around ,,i know they liked to do that to confuse us!!!

Oops! I saw that Evan Roberts in the household I copied, and failed to notice he was too young to be your Evan Roberts. ;)

There's still no point in sleeping on it until you have a birth cert under your pillow!

Might one ask too whether you have got your Elizabeth Ethel Roberts's marriage certificate? Please say she married! That's how you'll know whether the birth cert is for the right person -- if the fathers' names match.

Frosty, pft. You soft people don't know what winter is ...

sorry but no she was with aunt annie/uncle edward mcdougall 1901 liverpool .thank you kathryn but will have to sleep on this one in a cold and frosty wales .nite.

The EER registered in Conway was later:

Name: Ethel Elizabeth Roberts
Year of Registration: 1899
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Conway (To 1937)
County: Caernarvonshire, Denbighshire
Volume: 11b
Page: 476


Yours was registered 2nd quarter, and you say she was born in March. There's no real reason to think that this is the same person. Why would yours have been registered in Wales? In 1901 there are a dozen Elizabeth Roberts in that vicinity, born 1900, any of whom could be that other EER.

The one who fits yours perfectly, assuming your birth place and date info are accurate from family knowledge, is the one in Sue's post. Cheap enough way to get the answer!

Sue's plan is the only sound one. But I'm still pretty sure there was no Thomas Roberts marriage in West Derby in Q4 1897 ...


Elizabeth in 1901:


Name: Elizabeth Roberts
Age: 1
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1900
Relation: Granddaughter
Gender: Female
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Seaforth
Ecclesiastical parish: Seaforth St Thomas
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: West Derby
Sub-registration district: Crosby
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Household schedule number: 50

Elizabeth Roberts 1
Evan Roberts 53
John H Roberts 13
Lilian Roberts 11
Margaret Roberts 50
Margaret T Roberts 18
Mary E Roberts 25
William O Roberts 21


I see what you mean by ruling out other fathers, I think. But it seems that you will have a hypothesis only, and the birth cert is the only thing that will tell you. Then you can look for her parents' marriage.

thanks sue but if you look further there is also an elizabeth ethel roberts also reg same time in conway so was she reg in 2 diff places ..did they do that to cover tracks.viv