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thanks for all that on the binnersley family everyone. you've discovered so much I've got loads to keep me busy. I think I'll get the death certificate for him to see who did inform of the death Thsnks. it would make sense that he went back over to where he was born if his wife had died and I think the children were either in care due to neglect. Poor Bertha and the surviving three children. :-(

Thankyou. Sorry I have only just seen this reply to Thankyou so much :-)

Thankyou. Sorry I have only just seen this reply to Thankyou so much :-)

I have downloaded the 1921 record to which I referred and will send it to you as an attachment - GR system permitting!

Bertha married John in 1914, not 1915:

Marriages Jun 1914
Binnersley John C E Pickles Bucklow 8a 414
PICKLES Bertha Binnersley Bucklow 8a 414

She was already with child:

Births Sep 1914
Binnsley Horace Bickles Atcham 6a 1118

Deaths Sep 1915
Binnersley Horace 1 Burnley 8e 205

Rose

from 1921 census,

Bertha was born in Yorkshire.

Bertha
Binnersley
1886
Todmorden, Yorkshire, England
Burnley
Burnley


John Charles Edward
Binnersley
1871
Shrewsbury, Shropshire, England
Burnley
Burnley
Lancashire.

Lancashire.

I also noticed a lot of their children died very young and bertha must have been exhausted by the time she died I've no doubt. Perhaos she met him while working in Cheshire as I've no clue how she would have met him in Cheshire bucklow. They seemed to come back to burnley straight away. I may have to chrck the article in the newspaper of 1914 to see why he tried to commit suicide and why she agreed to marry him to save him from prison. I did not realuse thst trying to commit suicide was a criminal offence back then. I'll try to chrck the newspaper and this may give me a clue as to how Bertha was connected to this suicide attempt in 1914 :-)Thsnks again for all the info ??????

thanks everyone for so much info. John charles Edward was known as Charlie. He seems like he was offending from a very early age and I notice that one of he and berthas children at age 9 in 1928 in Burnley was caught stealing. He obviously WS a very bad example to his poor children. Poor Bertha had a tough life it seemed and was actually from a reasonably stable family herself who were not known to be in trouble with the police. I am surprised and curious as to why she even married him or how she even met him. I know her mum jemima pickles died young so perhaos she went astray a little as she had her first child out of wedlock. But she married John Charles knowing his criminal back ground and he had attempted suicide twice before he married Bertha in 1915.
Bertha is not My direct ancestor, her first cousin Mary hannah pickles is. I wasn't sure when he died but there is the possibility it is the one in Welshpool and I will get the death certificate to see if I can confirm this. Well done Erica for finding the birth undr the name bennersley. Great work by you all, I really appreciate it very much. Thankyou :-) :-S

Mothers are not named on English marriage certs

You need John Edward Charles's marriage cert , which hopefully would name his mother - though he may have invented a father's name to save face.

However, playing with this family - just in case Elizabeth Binnersley 1865 ,with mother Harriet, was indeed John Charles Edward's mother -


Elizabeth Bensley
in the 1871 England Census
Name: Elizabeth Bensley
Age: 6
Estimated Birth Year: 1865
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Female
Where born: Benington, Shropshire, England
Civil parish: Pontesbury
Ecclesiastical parish: Longden Chapelry
Town: Longden Common
County/Island: Shropshire
Country: England
Registration district: Atcham
Sub-registration district: Pontesbury
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Household schedule number: 36
Piece: 2763
Folio: 61
Page number: 6


Elizabeth Billinsley
in the 1881 England Census
Name: Elizabeth Billinsley
Age: 16
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1865
Relationship to Head: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Pontesbury, Shropshire, England
Civil Parish: Pontesbury
County/Island: Shropshire
Country: England
Street Address: Albert Arms Pontesbury Hill
Education:
Employment status:
View image
Occupation: Gen Serv
Registration District: Atcham
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Neighbors:
Piece: 2643
Folio: 22
Page Number: 3


Then married John William Dax in 1888 - posted previously.


Unless this is a different Harriet,
Elizabeth's mother Harriet (born c1840 Leebotwood, Shropshire) was with a John Poole in Pontesbury in 1891 and 1901, and still unmarried.

Pontesbury cropped up in John Charles's 1921 criminal record, as already mentioned.

1851:

Harriet Binersley
in the 1851 England Census
Name: Harriet Binersley
Age: 5
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1846
Relation: Sister
Gender: Female
Where born: Ch Stretton, Shropshire, England
Civil Parish: Leebotwood
Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Maps:
View related Ecclesiastical Parish
County/Island: Shropshire
Country: England
Street Address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Disability:
View image
Registration District: Church Stretton
Sub-registration District: Church Stretton
ED, institution, or vessel: 8a
Neighbors:
Household Schedule Number: 5
Piece: 1984
Folio: 268
Page Number: 3
Household Members:
Name Age
Ann Binersley 16 Head (scored out, and "Daughter" written instead ), unmarried.
Edward Binersley 14 - brother, unmarried
Harriet Binersley 5
James Prikin 6 - brother-in-law [ = step-brother ?]
Jane Binersley 2 - sister


??
PORKINS, JAMES mmn HARRISS
GRO Reference: 1845 M Quarter in CHURCH STRETTON UNION Volume 18 Page 37



BINNERSLEY, JANE mmn HARRISS
GRO Reference: 1849 M Quarter in CHURCH STRETTON UNION Volume 18 Page 33


Jane Binnersley
in the England, Select Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
Name: Jane Binnersley
Gender: Female
Baptism Date: 28 Jan 1849
Baptism Place: Leebotwood,Shropshire,England
Father: Thomas Binnersley
Mother: Sarah
FHL Film Number: 502933


Marriages Mar 1848 (>99%)
BINNERSBY Thomas Church Stretton 18 47
PERKINS Sarah Church Stretton 18 47


Sarah's previous marriage:

Marriages Dec 1843 (>99%)
Harris Sarah Church Stretton 18 59
Perkins William Church Stretton 18 59



Harriet - daughter from Thomas's previous marriage ??

Harriet Binnersley
in the England, Select Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
Name: Harriet Binnersley
Gender: Female
Baptism Date: 20 Jan 1845
Baptism Place: Church Stretton,Shropshire,England
Father: Thomas Binnersley
Mother: Margaret
FHL Film Number: 992085



??
BINNERSLEY, HARRIOTT mmn TURNER
GRO Reference: 1845 M Quarter in CHURCH STRETTON UNION Volume 18 Page 38

Thomas Binsley
in the England, Select Marriages, 1538-1973
Name: Thomas Binsley
Gender: Male
Marriage Date: 11 Nov 1823
Marriage Place: Alberbury, Shropshire, England
Spouse: Margaret Turner
FHL Film Number: 1657510
Reference ID: item 19-28 p 37 cn110



??
Thomas Billingsley
in the 1841 England Census
Name: Thomas Billingsley
Age: 38
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1803
Gender: Male
Where born: Shropshire, England
Civil parish: Pontesbury
Hundred: Ford (Ford Division)
County/Island: Shropshire
Country: England
Registration district: Atcham
Sub-registration district: Pontesbury
Neighbors:
Piece: 911
Book: 7
Folio: 22
Page number: 2
Household Members Age
Thomas Billingsley 38
Margaret Billingsley 36
Ann Billingsley 7 [ would fit with Ann in 1851 ]
Elizabeth Billingsley 5


Margaret's death ???:

BINSLEY, MARGARET 45
GRO Reference: 1846 S Quarter in CHURCH STRETTON UNION Volume 18 Page 29


Thomas's death ?? -

BINNERSLEY, THOMAS 58
GRO Reference: 1852 S Quarter in SHREWSBURY Volume 06A Page 425 :

Age stated at death is several years "out".
In 1851 he was in hospital in Shrewsbury - born 1806, which agrees with baptism on 27 April 1806 (as Billingsley)

1911 Census For England & Wales
8 Marquis Place Woodland Street Burnley Lancashire, Burnley, Lancashire, England

Elizabeth Greenwood Head Widow Female 65 1846 Cotton spinner Colne Lancs
Elizabeth Greenwood Daughter Single Female 25 1886 Cotton winder Lancs Burnley
Milton Greenwood Grandchild - Male 2 1909 - Lancs Burnley
Florence Procter Boarder Single Female 25 1886 Cotton weaver Lancs Burnley
Bertha Pickles Boarder Single Female 27 1884 Cotton weaver Yorks Todmorden

BINNERSLEY, FLORENCE MAY PICKLES
GRO Reference: 1921 D Quarter in BURNLEY Volume 08E Page 271

Marriages Sep 1960 (>99%)
Binnersley Florence M Garvey Ealing 5e 347
GARVEY William P BINNERSLEY Ealing 5e 347
Cert might say if her father is deceased

GARVEY, FLORENCE MAY 1921
GRO Reference: DOR Q3/2016 in HAMPSHIRE (504-1D) Entry Number 514228675

1921
Bertha
Binnersley
1886
Todmorden, Yorkshire, England
Burnley
Burnley
Lancashire
Bertha
Binnersley
1919
Burnley, Lancashire, England
Burnley
Burnley
Lancashire
John Charles Edward
Binnersley
1871
Shrewsbury, Shropshire, England
Burnley
Burnley
Lancashire
Madeleine P
Binnersley
1912
Burnley, Lancashire, England
Burnley
Burnley
Lancashire
Mary Ann
Binnersley
1920
Burnley, Lancashire, England
Burnley
Burnley
Lancashire

Births Jun 1912 (>99%)
Pickles Madeline Pickles Burnley 8e 317

Marriages Mar 1938 (>99%)
Murphy Edward Pickles Burnley 8e 247
Pickles Madeline Murphy Burnley 8e 247

1939 Register
19 Whittam Street, Burnley, Burnley C.B., Lancashire, England
Edward Murphy 01 Jun 1913 Male Back Tenter,Paper Making Machine Heavy Worker Married 241 1 Head
Madeline Murphy 05 May 1912 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 241 2
One closed record

Name: Bertha Binnersley
Death Age: 52
Birth Date: abt 1884
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar 1936*******************
Registration District: Burnley
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8e
Page: 257


Births Mar 1916 (>99%)
Binnersley Alfred Pickles Burnley 8e 245
Births Sep 1919 (>99%)
Binnersley Bertha Pickles Burnley 8e 205
Births Sep 1920 (>99%)
BINNERSLEY Mary A Pickles Burnley 8e 300
Births Dec 1921 (>99%)
Binnersley Florence M Pickles Burnley 8e 271
Births Dec 1923 (>99%)
Binnersley William E Pickles Burnley 8e 216
Births Mar 1925 (>99%)
BINNERSLEY Eva Pickles Burnley 8e 227


Name: William E Binnersley
Death Age: 0
Birth Date: abt 1923
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec 1923
Registration District: Burnley
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8e
Page: 194

Name: Alfred Binnersley
Death Age: 1
Birth Date: abt 1916
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar 1917
Registration District: Burnley
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8e
Page: 392

Burial: 21 Sep 1915 Burnley Cemetery, Burnley, Lancashire, England
Horace Binnersley -
Age: 1yr 1mnth
Abode: 17a Croft Street
Grave: NE3171
Notes: Buried in a Public Grave
Gender: M
Register: Burials 1914 - 1920, Page 81, Entry 81294
Source: Original Registers Book 11

Burial: 31 Mar 1917 Burnley Cemetery, Burnley, Lancashire, England
Alfred Binnersley -
Age: 1yr 2mnths
Abode: 17 Croft Street
Grave: NE3450
Notes: Buried in a Public Grave
Gender: M
Register: Burials 1914 - 1920, Page 170, Entry 83769
Source: Original Registers Book 11

Baptism: 8 May 1918 St James, Burnley, Lancashire, England
John Binnersley - [Child] of John Charles Edward Binnersley & Bertha
Abode: 5 Calder St.
Occupation: Laborer O. H. M. S.
Godparents: Mary Ellen Wrigley; Bertha Binnersley, mother; Florence Blair
Baptised by: B. Winfield Vicar
Register: Baptisms 1910 - 1920, Page 86, Entry 683
Source: Original Parish Register

Burial: 18 Nov 1918 Burnley Cemetery, Burnley, Lancashire, England
John Binnersley -
Age: 7mnths
Abode: 3a Calder Street
Grave: NE3631
Notes: Buried in a Public Grave
Gender: M
Register: Burials 1914 - 1920, Page 244, Entry 85862
Source: Original Registers Book 11


Baptism: 26 Sep 1923 St Peter, Burnley, Lancashire, England
William Binnersley - [Child] of John Binnersley & Bertha
Born: 14 Aug 1923
Abode: 39 Bridge Street, Burnley
Occupation: Coal Miner
Baptised by: G. R. Povey
Register: Baptisms 1919 - 1943, Page 68, Entry 543
Source: Original Parish Register

Burial: 19 Oct 1923 Burnley Cemetery, Burnley, Lancashire, England
William Edward Binnersley -
Age: 2mnths
Abode: 39 Bridge Street
Grave: NE4474
Notes: Buried in a Public Grave
Gender: M
Register: Burials 1920 - 1926, Page 182, Entry 92535
Source: Original Registers Book 12

Burial: 29 Dec 1925 Burnley Cemetery, Burnley, Lancashire, England
Eva Binnersley -
Age: 7mnths
Abode: 118 Briercliffe Road
Grave: NE2004
Notes: Buried in a Public Grave
Gender: F
Register: Burials 1920 - 1926, Page 284, Entry 95410
Source: Original Registers Book 12

Burial: 8 Feb 1936 Burnley Cemetery, Burnley, Lancashire, England
Bertha Binnersley -
Age: 67yrs
Abode: Municipal Hospital
Grave: A14474
Gender: F
Register: Burials 1933 - 1940, Page 124, Entry 107635
Source: Original Registers Book 14

Admission: 28 Nov 1937 Workhouse, Burnley, Lancashire, England
John Binnersley -
Born: 24 Mar 1878
More details available: Contact Lancashire Archives
Register: Admissions Index Book A-H 1937-1941
Source: Original Register at Lancashire Archives

Admission: 4 Oct 1938 Workhouse, Burnley, Lancashire, England
Mary Ann Binnersley -
Born: 5 Aug 1920
More details available: Contact Lancashire Archives
Register: Admissions Index Book A-H 1937-1941
Source: Original Register at Lancashire Archives

Admission: 28 Mar 1939 Workhouse, Burnley, Lancashire, England
John Charles Edward Binnersley -
Born: 24 Mar 1887
More details available: Contact Lancashire Archives
Register: Admissions Index Book A-H 1937-1941
Source: Original Register at Lancashire Archives

The 1937 record showing birth year 1878 is probably a simple mistranscription, or juxtaposition of digits

UK, Military Discharge Indexes, 1920-1971

Name: J Binnersley
Birth Date: 24 Mar 1887
Service Number: D/6074
Rank: Army Other Ranks, Discharges for 1939-1971
Additional Regiment: RWFUS
Reference Number: ADH001090947

The birth posted above for Charles Edward Binnersley in 1887 is actually recorded in the index as BENNERSLEY

Name: Charles Edward Bennersley
Registration Date: 1887
Quarter of the Year: Apr-May-Jun
Registration Place: Atcham, Shropshire, England
Volume: 6a
Page: 616

Image on Ancestry

Probably best to get a copy of the 1954 death cert - to see who the informant was

OK - so we forget about Sarah Belch / Binnersley and family.

Back to the drawing board!

Possibly back to Elizabeth/Lizzie Binnersley as candidate for his mother.

BELCH, GLADYS ELIZABETH COLE
GRO Reference: 1909 S Quarter in ATCHAM Volume 06A Page 589

Births Mar 1912 (>99%)
BELCH Edna G M Coles Atcham 6a 1099

Births Jun 1914 (>99%)
Belch Henry T J Gales Atcham 6a 1113


Marriages Jun 1914 (>99%)
Belch Henry T Coles Atcham 6a 1616
Coles Elizabeth Belch Atcham 6a 1616

This child is with Sarah, nee Belch and family in 1911 (adopted)

THOMAS, VIOLET ADA -
GRO Reference: 1907 J Quarter in ATCHAM Volume 06A Page 646

Sarah's birth - just to add the finishing touch

BELCH, SARAH MARIA HOMES
GRO Reference: 1864 M Quarter in ATCHAM Volume 06A Page 693

On 7th April 1915, when discharged from the Army, his age was 32 years 14 days

His military conduct was 'Fair' His conduct as per King's Regulations was 'Bad'