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Sarah Murrey
in the 1911 England Census
Name: Sarah Murrey
Age in 1911: 69
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1842
Relation to Head: Wife
Gender: Female
Birth Place: St Mary Magdalene, Taunton, Somerset
Civil Parish: Taunton St Mary Magdalene
Country: England
Street Address: 84 South Street, Taunton
Marital status: Married
Years Married: 8
Estimated Marriage Year: 1903
Occupation: Laundress Domestic
Registration District Number: 305
Sub-registration District: Taunton
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Piece: 14244
Household Members:
Name Age
James Murrey 66
Sarah Murrey 69


Sarah Townsend
in the 1901 England Census
Name: Sarah Townsend
Age: 58
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1843
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Taunton
Civil Parish: Taunton St Mary
Ecclesiastical parish: Holy Trinity
County/Island: Somerset
Country: England
Street Address: 81 South Street
Registration District: Taunton
Sub-registration District: Taunton
ED, institution, or vessel: 15
Neighbors:
Piece: 2278
Folio: 127
Page Number: 36
Household Schedule Number: 248
Household Members:
Name Age
Sarah Townsend 58 - widow, laundress


Sarah Townsend
in the 1891 England Census
Name: Sarah Townsend
Gender: Female
Age: 48
Relationship: Head
Birth Year: 1843
Birth Place: Taunton, Somerset, England
Civil parish: Taunton St Mary Magdalene Within
Ecclesiastical parish: Holy Trinity
Residence Place: Taunton St Mary Magdalene Within, Somerset, England
Registration district: Taunton
Sub registration district: Taunton St Mary Magdalen [ 81 South Street ]
ED, Institution or Vessel: 5
Neighbors:
Piece: 1875
Folio: 108
Household Members Age Relationship
Sarah Townsend 48 Head , widow


In 1881 she's with Annie and Reginald, as already posted.

So it seems she finally married Annie Ellen's father , James Murray/Murrey!

I don't see a Hooper/Townsend marriage.

Possible death of James's father ??

MURREY, JOHN 79
GRO Reference: 1895 J Quarter in TAUNTON Volume 05C Page 250

John Murrey
in the England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations), 1858-1995
Name: John Murrey
Death Date: 16 Apr 1895
Death Place: Taunton, Somerset, England
Probate Date: 9 May 1895
Probate Registry: Taunton

John Murrey of Taunton, retired cabinet maker, died 16 April 1895.
Probate Taunton 9 May to Walter Knighton Petherick, bird stuffer, and William John Jewell, chief clerk in the district Probate Registry at Taunton. Effects £315 1s.


John Murrey
in the 1851 England Census
Name: John Murrey
Age: 35
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1816
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Elizabeth Murrey
Gender: Male
Where Born: Taunton, Somerset, England
Civil Parish: Taunton St Mary Magdalen
Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Maps:
View related Ecclesiastical Parish
Town: Taunton
County/Island: Somerset
Country: England
Street Address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Disability:
View image
Registration District: Taunton
Sub-registration District: Pitminster
ED, institution, or vessel: 4g
Neighbors:
Household Schedule Number: 82
Piece: 1922
Folio: 632
Page Number: 25
Household Members:
Name Age
John Murrey 35 - cabinet maker
Elizabeth Murrey 37
Ferdinando Murrey 7


MURREY, FERDINANDO BUTLER mmn BUTLER
GRO Reference: 1843 D Quarter in TAUNTON Volume 10 Page 468


Ferdinand Butthe Murrey
in the Somerset, England, Church of England Baptisms, 1813-1914
Name: Ferdinand Butthe Murrey
Baptism Date: 23 Nov 1843
Baptism Place: Taunton St Mary, Somerset, England
Parish as it Appears: St Mary Magdalene Taunton
Father: John Murrey
Mother: Elizabeth Murrey


Given Ferdinando's middle name and mmn, as well as father's name and occupation, this must be James's family - though I'm not sure about his birth - the 1846 illegitimate birth I suggested earlier doesn't seem right after all, as it's after John & Elizabeth's marriage, but I can't see a a birth with mmn Butler or similar.

But he's never with his father in census - he seems to have been brought up by his grandparents ..

John & Elizabeth's marriage:

Marriages Jun 1843 (>99%)
BUTLER Elizabeth Mayne Bridgwater 10 563
MURREY John Bridgwater 10 563


John, Elizabeth and Ferdinando are together in 1861,1871 and 1881, though Ferdinando is called Frederick in 1881.

Ferdinando died in Dec 1881, and Elizabeth died in 1887.
1891, John's a boarder in Taunton.

Marriages Sep 1863
BUTCHER John W London 1c 133 Scan available - click to view
Hooper Sarah W. London 1c 133 Scan available - click to view
Pearce Eleanor W. London 1c 133 Scan available - click to view
TOWNSEND William W. London 1c 133 Scan available - click to view

Thinking outside the box, this looks like them...

It's not the first time I've found poor relatives marrying in London.

Hmmm - I don't think it's the right marriage:

Sarah Hooper
in the London, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1936
Name: Sarah Hooper
Gender: Female
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 23 Aug 1863
Marriage Place: St Dunstan in the West, City of London, England
Father: John Hooper
Spouse: William Townsend
Register Type: Parish Register


William's a shipwright, and his father, also called William, is a sawmill proprietor.
Address: 170 Fleet Street.

Sarah's father John is a Captain.
Address: 185 Fleet Street.

The timing looks ok, but I found info that this marriage was at St.Dunstans,London, 23rd August 1863.
Sarah Hooper's father was JOHN Hooper
Williams father was William Townsend

Oh thank you, that could have been a big mistake....
perhaps we have the correct Sarah on census after all.

Maybe no marriage at all, after all that has been found, it seems Sarah had Annie to Murrey perhaps , but lived as William Townsend's wife,

Good night,

FreeBmd
Marriages
William Townsend at Taunton 5c 617
.... Spouse missing
After a search for Sarah Townsend same quarter she is found page 6c 617 Droitwich.
Original entry examined.
It is her, same page as William and I have added a postem today.

Happy days !

Thank you for all the efforts you have put I so far.

However, I must now decide if this Annie, with a difficult background, is indeed the one I'm looking for.
I cannot find a death or later matching census for Annie GILL. If such a record exists, it would collapse the whole pack of cards.

Comments please ?

Well done on finding the marriage!

Our last sighting of Annie so far, was in 1881 , with her mother Sarah, and husband Reginald.

In 1894 Reginald married Ellen Page, as already posted.





Annie Hill
in the 1891 England Census
Name: Annie Hill
Gender: Female
Age: 27
Relationship: Wife
Birth Year: 1864
Spouse:
William Hill
Child:
William G Hill
Birth Place: Yaunton, Somerset, England
Civil parish: Portsea
Ecclesiastical parish: Kingston St Mary
Residence Place: Portsea, Hampshire, England
Registration district: Portsea Island
Sub registration district: Landport
ED, Institution or Vessel: 9
Neighbors:
Piece: 867
Folio: 57
Household Members Age Relationship
William Hill 29 Head
Annie Hill 27 Wife
William G Hill 1 Son


Annie Hill
in the 1901 England Census
Name: Annie Hill
Age: 37
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1864
Relation to Head: Wife
Gender: Female
Spouse: William Hill
Birth Place: Taunton, Somerset, England
Civil Parish: Portsmouth
Ecclesiastical parish: St Luke
Town: Portsmouth
County/Island: Hampshire
Country: England
Street Address:
Registration District: Portsmouth
Sub-registration District: Portsmouth and Mid Southsea
ED, institution, or vessel: 17
Neighbors:
Piece: 1003
Folio: 84
Page Number: 4
Household Schedule Number: 25
Household Members:
Name Age
William Hill 49
Annie Hill 37
William G Hill 11
Thomas F Hill 9
Alfred A Hill 7


HILL, WILLIAM GEORGE mmn HOOPER
GRO Reference: 1890 M Quarter in PORTSEA ISLAND Volume 02B Page 538

HILL, THOMAS FREDERICK mmn HOOPER
GRO Reference: 1892 J Quarter in PORTSEA ISLAND Volume 02B Page 485

HILL, ALFRED ARCHIBALD mmn HOOPER
GRO Reference: 1894 M Quarter in PORTSEA ISLAND Volume 02B Page 516



Annie Jervis
in the 1911 England Census
Name: Annie Jervis
Age in 1911: 47
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1864
Relation to Head: Wife
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Taunton, Somerset
Civil Parish: Hanley
Country: England
Street Address: 41 Beresford St, Shelton, Stoke On Trent, Staffs
Marital status: Married
Years Married: 8
Estimated Marriage Year: 1903
Registration District Number: 361
Sub-registration District: Hanley
ED, institution, or vessel: 31
Piece: 16541
Household Members:
Name Age
Henry Jervis 44
Annie Jervis 47
Nellie Jervis 7
Thomas Hill 19 - Portsmouth


HILL, NELLIE VERA MURREY mmn HOOPER
GRO Reference: 1904 J Quarter in PORTSMOUTH Volume 02B Page 413


Nellie Vera Murrey Hill
in the Somerset, England, Church of England Baptisms, 1813-1914
Name: Nellie Vera Murrey Hill
Birth Date: 6 Mar 1904
Baptism Date: 11 Aug 1904
Baptism Place: Taunton Holy Trinity, Somerset, England
Parish as it Appears: Holy Trinity Taunton
Father: William Hill
Mother: Annie Ellen Murrey Hill



Annie doesn't seem to have married either William Hill or Henry Jervis.

Nellie Vera M Channon
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: Nellie Vera M Channon
Death Age: 69
Birth Date: 6 Mar 1904
Registration Date: Apr 1973
[May 1973]
[Jun 1973]
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Registration District: Bristol
Inferred County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 7b
Page: 536


Marriages Dec 1927 (>99%)
Channon Albert Jervis Bristol 6a 262
Jervis Nellie V H Channon Bristol 6a 262


Nellie Vera Hill Jewis
in the Bristol, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1935
Name: Nellie Vera Hill Jewis
Marriage Age: 23
Record Type: Marriage
Birth Year: abt 1904
Marriage Date: 26 Dec 1927
Marriage Place: Bedminster, St Michael and All Angels, Bristol, England
Parish as it Appears: St Michael & All Angels Wind Mill Hill
Father: Henry Jewis, seaman
Spouse: Albert Channon


Annie E Jarvis
in the 1939 England and Wales Register
Name: Annie E Jarvis
Gender: Female
Marital Status: Widow
Birth Date: 24 Feb 1864
Residence Date: 1939
Address: 246
Residence Place: Bristol, Gloucestershire, England
Occupation: Domestic Unpaid
Line Number: 7
Schedule Number: 19
Sub Schedule Number: 1
Enumeration District: OAEM
Borough: Bristol
Registration district: 319/3
Household Members Age
Annie E Jarvis 75 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Albert Channon 36
Nellie V Channon 35


Annie's death:

JERVIS, ANNIE ELLEN 77
GRO Reference: 1942 M Quarter in BRISTOL Volume 06A Page 131

Oh dear...THE WHOLE HOUSE OF CARDS HAS FALLEN!

disappointing, but I wasn't, getting the "Irishness" I was looking for either, as claimed by Annie Townsend,
But as she is hiding somewhere in 1891, I think I'm looking for a similar sort of story.
Of course she could have just appeared from Ireland, who knows

A HUGE THANK YOU. Such good laborious detective work. :-D

OK - re-reading all the posts in the earlier part of this thread, before we were side-tracked by Annie Ellen Hooper!

To recap -

On page 4 you posted info from a descendant of Annie, who confirmed that Annie had died in Bristol in 1904, aged 39.
That's the death suggested by Sylvia on page 1 - surname Cousins.

We have various sightings of Annie, either directly or indirectly (via births of her children) all the way back to her marriage in 1883 to Simon Moore Wilton in Liskeard, Cornwall 1883.

Her father was William, a labourer.
Her address was Pipe Well Street, Callington, Cornwall

Her stated age at death suggests birth c1865.
At marriage in 1883 she says she's 21, implying birth c1862.
1901 census, posted by safc on page 1, says she was born c1870 in Launceston, Cornwall.

Presumably approx 1862/1865 is more likely, given her marriage in 1883.

The only Cornwall births of a Townsend with first name anything like Annie, 1860-70, are the two already suggested;

Susan Ann , 1865, Tavistock
and
Elizabeth Ann, 1868, Liskeard.

Susan Ann had father William (quarryman), and sister Bessie.
Living in Tavistock in 1881.
Born Milton Abbot, Devon.

We can rule her out:

Susan A Townsend
in the 1891 England Census
Name: Susan A Townsend
Gender: Female
Age: 25
Relationship: Servant
Birth Year: 1866
Birth Place: Milton Abbot, Devon, England
Civil parish: Portsea
Ecclesiastical parish: St Jude
Residence Place: Portsea, Hampshire, England
Registration district: Portsea Island
Sub registration district: Landport
ED, Institution or Vessel: 51
Neighbors:
Piece: 874
Folio: 37
Household Members Age Relationship
Francis B Bulkeley 62 Head
Rosanna M Bulkeley 53 Wife
Frances E Bulkeley 34 Daughter
Constance L R Bulkeley 21 Daughter
Nina St C Bulkeley 18 Daughter
Susan A Townsend 25 Servant
Elizabeth Ellis 23 Servant
Emma Woodruff 16 Servant


Elizabeth Ann's father was Richard - so we can also rule her out - which is a pity, because she lived in Callington where Annie married in 1883:

Elizabeth A Townsend
in the 1871 England Census
Name: Elizabeth A Townsend
Age: 2
Estimated Birth Year: 1869
Relation: Daughter
Gender: Female
Where born: Callington, Cornwall, England
Civil parish: Callington
County/Island: Cornwall
Country: England
Registration district: Liskeard
Sub-registration district: Callington
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Household schedule number: 73
Piece: 2233
Folio: 12
Page number: 16
Household Members Age Relationship
Richard Townsend 36 Head
Emma Townsend 36 Wife
William H Townsend 13 Son
Jim Townsend 11 Son
Bessy Townsend 9 Daughter
Emily Townsend 6 Daughter
Elizabeth A Townsend 2 Daughter

She married Samuel Griffin in 1889.



If the stated birthplace of Cornwall in 1901 census is wrong, there's no telling where she might have been born.
Re an Irish connection -
an Anne Townsend was born in Callan, Kilkenny in 1867 - but her father was John.

No further help with Annie, but just to round off this post on 12 Jan 2018 -

"Sylvia found ... Edward in 1911..
I'm wondering if Ellen 20 born Exeter is his first child b. 1892..
..but I can't find a marriage for Ellen to Spriggs, nor a birth for James Spriggs...unless he is James G Cousins born Plymouth JunQ 1909.,,as 1911 seems to say place of birth Plymouth, St. Andrews !!! "


Yes, the 1909 birth is the right one - but it was a late addition.
The birth was registered as both Warren and Cousins.

When you look at the images, you can see that both of the 1909 entries were added by hand, with a reference to March 1916.:

Births Jun 1909 (>99%)
COUSINS James G Plymouth 5b Mch/16
Warren James Gideon Plymouth 5b Mch/16


Births Mar 1916 (>99%)
Cousins James G Cousins Plymouth 5b 402
Warren James G Cousins Plymouth 5b 402


It looks as if the birth wasn't actually registered until 1916, although he was born in 1909.

EDIT:

Oops! I see this has already been answered by AustinQ on 12 Jan 2018 - though with a slightly different interpretation..

I don't think this has been posted before:

James Gideon Warren
in the UK, Royal Navy Registers of Seamen's Services, 1848-1939
Name: James Gideon Warren
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 6 Apr 1909
Birth Place: Plymouth, Devon
First Service Date: 29 Sep 1925
First Ship Served On: Impregnable
Last Service Date: 29 Dec 1927
Last Ship Served On: Resolution
Service Number: J 115387


James G Warren
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1916-2005
Name: James G Warren
Registration Date: Apr 1938
[May 1938]
[Jun 1938]
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Registration District: Portsmouth
Inferred County: Hampshire
Spouse: Irene M Silman
Volume Number: 2b
Page Number: 1377


Sgnl Bosun James Gideon Warren
in the UK and Ireland, Find a Grave Index, 1300s-Current
Name: Sgnl Bosun James Gideon Warren
Birth Date: 6 Apr 1909
Birth Place: Plymouth, Plymouth Unitary Authority, Devon, England
Death Date: 25 Nov 1941
Cemetery: Portsmouth Naval Memorial
Burial or Cremation Place: Portsmouth, Portsmouth Unitary Authority, Hampshire, England

Lost at sea: Died in the Mediterranean Sea off Soloum on HMS Barham.


James Gideon Warren
in the UK, Commonwealth War Graves, 1914-1921 and 1939-1947
Name: James Gideon Warren
Gender: Male
Age: 32
Birth Date: abt 1909
Death Date: 25 Nov 1941
Cemetery: Naval Memorials United Kingdom Part X
Burial Country: England
Region or Memorial: Memorial Register

RN; HMS Barham; Panel 45, column 3.


James Gideon Warren
in the England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations), 1858-1995
Name: James Gideon Warren
Death Date: 25 Nov 1941
Death Place: Portsmouth
Probate Date: 24 Sep 1942
Probate Registry: Winchester, Chester, England

WARREN, James Gideon, of 26 Seafield Road, Copnor, Portsmouth died on or since 25 November 1941 on war service.
Administration Winchester 24 September to Irene May Warren, widow.
Effects: £932 5s 9d.



Irene May Warren
in the 1939 England and Wales Register
Name: Irene May Warren [Irene May Morley]
Gender: Female
Marital Status: Married
Birth Date: 9 Dec 1916
Residence Date: 1939
Address: 43 Sydenham Ter
Residence Place: Portsmouth, Hampshire, England
Occupation: Unpaid Domestic Duties
Line Number: 2
Schedule Number: 18
Sub Schedule Number: 4
Enumeration District: EBGD
Borough: Portsmouth
Registration district: 90/2
Household Members Age
Elias Silman 48
Emily Silman 49
Muriel Silman 22
Irene May Warren 23
Graham Warren 0


Marriages Dec 1947 (>99%)
Morley Victor A Warren Portsmouth 6b 918
Warren Irene M Morley Portsmouth 6b 918

Thank you argyllgran and all for this valued help. It seems I'll not be able to find Annie Townsend, but the further information about Ellen's/Nellie's child is valuable compensation.

From time to time I'll look for Annie in1891, in case there is a further clue about her birth, but I think she is hiding. She was already pregnant with Ellen who was born in the November if I remember correctly.
Although she left the first three children in the workhouse, she took the toddler Leonard with her, as he is with the Cousins in 1901.

:-\

One last try with this family… on page one you will see
Joseph Moore Wilton s.o. Simon Moore Wilton and Annie Townsend.
He is the last child to trace…. And I’m struggling
He was left in Plymouth workhouse with his siblings, when his mother Annie set up house with Cousins taking the baby Leonard with her.
He is found with his sister Annie in 1901 on a farm in on around Tatham, lancs. (Which is probably why his birth place is given as that by the farmer)

By 1911 he is at Rook cottage, Caton, Lancs age 23,
Wife Mary Ellen Wilton (was Seed b. 1885) age 25
John Seed bro in law 24 born goosnargh
Emma Seed wife sis in law 24
Mary niece 1 wife and daughter b. Catterell
Baptism for Mary Ellen 14.6.1885 at Lancaster Goosnargh nr. Preston Lancs.

I couldn’t find anything further for either of them until yesterday, but this is all I have
Marriage
1 sep 1909 st. James, Whitechapel. Lancs
Joseph Wilton 22 farm servant Bachelor wood acre farm, goosnargh
Mary Ellen seed 24 spinster wood acre farm goosnargh
GROOMS FATHER SAMUEL MO-E WILTON farmer
Brides father John Seed, farm labourer
Wits Edward Maudsley, Percy Bretherton, Maggie Seed (could be her mum) Annie Baines (?)

After this I can’t see any records to match…
However there is a tale in the family that his sister (known as granny Annie) used to get dressed up to visit him (known by relative when a child, she born 1938). It is assumed he was in an asylum, but equally it could be a grave she was visiting??

Any clues would help us, and of course there was a two wars to hamper the search.
Grateful for your past help. G

The 2 census you refer to, easier to "see' this way

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Millhouses, Tatham, Lunesdale, Lancashire, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
William Moorby Head Married Male 67 1834 Farmer Long Preston, Yorkshire, England
Jane Moorby Wife Married Female 65 1836 - Wray, Lancashire, England
William Moorby Son Single Male 24 1877 Quarry man Wray, Lancashire, England
Annie Wilton Nil Single Female 14 1887 General servant (domestic) -
Joseph Wilton Nil Single Male 13 1888 Scholar -

Place of birth for Annie and Joseph is written as Not known on original, has only English
-------------------------------

1911 Census For England & Wales
Nook Cottage Caton, Caton, Lancashire, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship to head Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Joseph Wilton Head Married Male 23 1888 Cowman on farm Lancashire Tatham
Mary Ellen Wilton Wife Married Female 25 1886 Housekeeper Lancashire Goosnargh
John Seed Brother in law Married Male 24 1887 Horseman on farm Lancashire Goosnargh
Emma Seed Sister in law Married Female 24 1887 Housekeeper Lancashire Catterall
Mary Seed Niece - Female 1 1910 - Lancashire Catterall

Joseph and Mary married 1 year, no children born

Not seeing any births to the couple after this

1921 census ? shows them in Dunfermline, Fife at 99 Goldrum Street

Joseph Wilton 31 b Lancaster, Lancashire shipyard Driller HM Dockyard Rosyth
Mary E Wilton 35 b Preston, Lancashire Home duties

Tatham is a village and parish in City of Lancaster district
Goosenargh is a parish in City of Preston district


Surname Sort descending Forename Year Gender Age at census Ref RD Name County / City
WILTON MARY E 1921 F 35 424/ 18/ 11 DUNFERMLINE FIFE

WILTON JOSEPH 1921 M 33 424/ 18/ 11 DUNFERMLINE FIFE


As I've used a few credits to look at the census, I'll attempt to send to you via PM

Scotlands People -shows on Valuation rolls records -

Surname Forename Title Status Place Parish Year Reference Number
WILTON JOSEPH TENANT/OCCUPIER HOUSE 99 GOLFDRUM STREET
DUNFERMLINE 1925 VR002600044

but not after that

You can register with Scotland's People and buy 30 credits for £7.50 to check out this vague possibility and to look at the Valuation rolls (2 credits) -

Joseph named 1925, so Mary probably there but not listed herself
Not seeing either Joseph or Mary in 1930

In 1935 and 1940 Mary is listed so where is Joseph

1940 VR
Surname Forename Title Status Place Parish Year Reference Number
WILTON MARY E MRS TENANT
SHOP 68 NETHERTOWN BROAD STREET MOODIE STREET
DUNFERMLINE 1940 VR002600059-


1935 - the above address seems to be split into 2 -

Surname Forename Title Status Place Parish Year Reference Number
WILTON MARY MRS TENANT HOUSE 12 NETHERTOWN STREET EAST
DUNFERMLINE 1935 VR002600054- View (2 credits)

WILTON MARY E MRS TENANT SHOP 68 MOODIE STREET
DUNFERMLINE 1935 VR002600054- View (2 credits)

There is a death of a Mary Wilton aged 77 in Glasgow (North) in 1954. This would make the birth around 1887. They could have moved from Fife dockyard to Glasgow shipyards (clutching at straws here)

6 credits would allow you to look at the full death certificate for it's details

However not seeing a possible death for Joseph or Mary

Unfortunately, both Joseph Wilton and Mary Ellen Wilton are very common names, and as they appear to have moved around the country, presumably for work, they could be anywhere, or died anywhere, after 1921.

There's no death of any Joseph Wilton anywhere in Scotland after 1921, apart from a 21-year old with middle name John, in 1950-51.