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It seems strange that all four - David and Tillie and Ralph and Hettie (and their daughter) - disappear in 1939.

It has to be something to do with their nationality although Rudolph (Ralph) was born in London. David I think was not. Hettie - who knows?

The marriage certificate will give Hettie's age and you can hopefully work back from that. If it is 1905, then maybe the Yetty birth is worth a punt.

Jude

Perhaps in an internment camp during the war, as not British subjects?

Hettie and Ralph appear to disappear completely. I think there was a daughter born just after the marriage...

Do you think they changed their name (all three of them)?

Jude

Could they have changed their name, perhaps, because of the war, if Landsman was recognisably a Jewish name?

But would that have mattered when they were in Britain?

And I was just about to say...

Yes the 1932 marriage is compelling - and his name allegedly "Davis"

Curiously I can find David and Tillie up to 1939 and then after the war, no sign. And Jacob and Tilly I can't find until 1946....

But Jacob D cannot be Hettie's father IF she was born in 1905 as HE was born 1902

And his wife Tillie was born in 1909

Jude

The probate record posted by Chris Ho on page 1 was for a Tillie Landsman of Leeside Crescent.
That was the 1993 death posted by Jude on page 1.

Does that relate at all to the Tillie at Leaside Road in 1935 ER ??

If so, she was born 26/10/1909 - so too young to be your Hettie's mother

Yes the 1932 marriage is compelling - and his name allegedly "Davis"

Curiously I can find David and Tillie up to 1939 and then after the war, no sign. And Jacob and Tilly I can't find until 1946....

Jude

Thank you, ArgyllGran, for the confirmation that there are no atlantic crossings.

And thank you Jude for the electoral rolls, I'll track down the originals. Somehow it's always easier to find things that you know are thre!!

I've ordered the Ralph - Hetty marriage certificate.

I wondered if perhaps Finkelstein -> Stein -> Stone
and Lendesman -> Landsman
There were so many name changes.

Name: Jacob D Lendesmen
Spouse Surname: Stone
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1932
Registration district: Stepney
Inferred County: Middlesex
Volume Number: 1c
Page Number: 482

Name: Tillie Stone
Spouse Surname: Lendesmen
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1932
Registration district: Stepney
Inferred County: Middlesex
Volume Number: 1c
Page Number: 482

I'll report back when I have the certificates, thank you very much for all your support.

Keith

Well "your" David and Tilly were in Hackney in 1935

Name: Tillie Landsman
Year: 1935
County or Borough: City of London
Ward or Division/Constituency: City of London
Street address: 2/4 Moorfielda House

This is their "work"

Name: Tilly Landsman
Year: 1935
County or Borough: Hackney
Ward or Division/Constituency: Hackney
Street address: 20 LEASIDE ROAD-conM

This is their home (although it says Evering Road on the work image) - it's definitely the right pair...in 1939 this is their address when they are paired with Ralph and Hettie in the work roll

So yep - two separate David and Tillies methinks. And the New York one has to be the Tillie Finkelstein marriage

Jude

No sign of Tilly/ie travelling, though lots of David Landsmen as has already been said.

Ah, the dreaded alternative spelling, thank you again, Jude!

The probate record helpfully says "Lendesmen or Landsman"

Maybe I can find more using the Lendesmen spelling ...

But that US census record, I find it quite a coincidence that there should be two couples David & Tillie Landsman.

I was going to ask if there was any sign of David & Tilly crossing the Atlantic together ...

Keith

I think this rules out the 1934 marriage...

Name: David Landsman
Age: 33
Estimated birth year: abt 1907
Gender: Male
Race: White
Birthplace: Nebraska
Marital Status: Married
Relation to Head of House: Head
Home in 1940: New York, Kings, New York
Map of Home in 1940: View Map
Street: East 93rd Street
House Number: 87
Farm: No
Inferred Residence in 1935: New York, Kings, New York
Residence in 1935: Same Place
Resident on farm in 1935: No
Sheet Number: 12A
Institution: None
Number of Household in Order of Visitation: 233
Occupation: Credit Manager
House Owned or Rented: Rented
Value of Home or Monthly Rental if Rented: 33
Attended School or College: No
Highest Grade Completed: High School, 2nd year
Hours Worked Week Prior to Census: 50
Class of Worker: Wage or salary worker in private work
Weeks Worked in 1939: 52
Income: 2000
Income Other Sources: No
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
David Landsman 33
Tillie Landsman 33
Ira Landsman 3

So back where we started :-(

David/Tillie Hettie/Ralph

Jude

and this the 1955 death and probate

Deaths Mar 1955 (>99%)
Landsman Jacob D 53 Islington 5c 1187

Jacob Davis Lendesmen
[Jacob Davis Landsman]
Probate Date: 23 Jul 1955
Registry: London, England
Death Date: 13 Jan 1955
Death Place: London, England

Maybe not the same couple...

Jude

This is the 1932 marriage

Marriages Mar 1932 (>99%)
Lendesman Jacob D Stone Stepney 1c 482
Stein Tillie Lendesmen Stepney 1c 482
Stone Tillie Lendesmen Stepney 1c 482

Jude

Hi Chris & Chris & Jude, and thank you!

"1932 and Tillie is already with him as his wife.....so that 1934 marriage is too late"

Maybe. I've seen one Jewish family which married in a church and in a synagogue, I'm told this was not unusual around this time. Maybe the NY marriage is a duplicate in this sense?

How can I find more about that "Marriage 1932 Stepney", Chris? It doesn't show up for me in searches ...

I agree about buying certificates, but it starts to get expensive ...

I've asked for a quote for the naturalisation certificate, that should help a lot!

Keith

What I don't like is that David appears in the electoral registers (living at 215 Evering Road Hackney) and working in the City (with Ralph who that year was also in Evering Road) in 1932 and Tillie is already with him as his wife.....so that 1934 marriage is too late :-( :-( :-(

Jude

https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=landsman&yearOfDeath=1994&page=2#calendar

(above for that 1993 Death)

(addresses from Certs. always useful, handy for newspaper look up's, googling, electoral etc!)

Chris :)

edits

(address from Probate, on google?, Husband Death 1955. Marriage 1932 Stepney)

Hey Jude!

I'd sort of come to the same conclusion about buying the marriage certificate.

I'm in touch with the owner of the RANT tree, the above query is an attempt to confirm or refute some of the content.

But your find of the marriage in NY and the death are intriguing. It *suggests* to me that the David & Tilly of the electoral roll are of the same generation as Hetty & Ralph, and *perhaps* there is another David Landsman who was Hetty's father. That seems to fit, at least as a working hypothesis.

Unfortunately Hetty's marriage certificate won't clarify that as at best it will show David as father without saying which David!

That's really useful, Jude, thank you.

Keith

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C11719707

(Naturalisation Certificate for one, 1931)

Chris :)

http://www.jewishgen.org/

(above could be useful perhaps, Finkelstein, or similar!)

I think Tillie is definitely his wife because she has electoral roll qualification Dw which signifies through occupation of husband

Jude