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I'm loth to discount anything, ArgyllGran!

I think it's unlikely that Hetty Altman could be the mother of Hetty Landsman, the dates don't look right. But that's not the same as saying that Hetty Altman didn't marry "this" David Landsman.

We simply haven't found sufficient conventional (BMD) records to be able to be certain of anything much at this point. Again, not helped by the constant name changing!

The certificates may help, I certainly hope so, but it's frustrating to have to wait for the two weeks they take to arrive!!

Keith

More grist to the mill, ArgyllGran! I'd seen the Ruislip nest but saw no way of linking it (or not) with the East Enders.

It's not made any easier when Landsman can be Londsman or Lendesmen (or for all I know 16 other variants!!)

How likely is it that we could find three (I think that's the current count) of couples: David (or some variant) Landsman (or some variant) married to a Hetty?

Are there any ways - apart from ordering upteen certificates - of ruling some of these people in or out? I'd like to order certificates for probables rather than possibles!

Keith

No, forget that!

Reginald is the son of Hetty Altman, whose 1917 marriage to a David Landsman was posted on page 1 by Malyon - and we discounted that one - I think?

Births Mar 1921 (>99%)
Landsman Reginald Altman St.Martin 1a 780

As we're flinging random names around, I'll just add that there are people named David and Hetty Landsman living in Middlesex in 1940's and 50's , with a third person named Reginald David Landsman.

Probably nothing to do with your query!

David Landsman (and Hetty and Reginald)

in the London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965
Name: David Landsman
Year: 1945
County or Borough: Hendon
Ward or Division/Constituency: Wembley North East
Street address: 7033 Kastan (Actually 21 Woodlands Avenue, Uxbridge)
Reference Number: MR/PER/C/0706


David Landsman (and Hetty, Irene M, and Reginald)
in the London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965
Name: David Landsman
Year: 1949
County or Borough: Ruislip and Northwood
Ward or Division/Constituency: Ruislip Northwood South East
Street address: 21 Bihz (21 Woodlands Avenue, now apparently in Ruislip)
Reference Number: MR/PER/C/0783

Reginald and Irene have "S" before their names, which indicates Service Voter.

And annually until 1958 ( haven't looked at the image for every year):

David Landsman (and Hetty)

in the London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965
Name: David Landsman
Year: 1958
County or Borough: Ruislip and Northwood
Ward or Division/Constituency: Ruislip Northwood South East
Street address: INeai (21 Woodlands Avenue)
Reference Number: MR/PER/C/1005


His death and probate:

David Landsman
in the England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations), 1858-1966
Name: David Landsman
Probate Date: 30 May 1958
Registry: London, England
Death Date: 30 Mar 1958
Death Place: Middlesex, England

Landsman, David, of 21 Woodlands Avenue, Eastcote, Ruislip, Middlesex died 30 March 1958 at Mount Vernon Hospital, Middlesex. Administration London 30 May to Hetty Landsman, widow. Effects £131 3s 5d.

Yes, I'd seen the Stein Lendesman marriage (and speculated on the progression: Finkelstein -> Stein -> Stone).

And I agree that Tillie 1909 - 1993 looks likely.

I hadn't twigged the possibility Annie Fanny, that's nice! And the remarriage idea could fit.

But, if Annie / Fanny died, where's the record of it? Ditto the second marriage? Those questions would make more sense if they would stick to the same name for longer than five minutes!

Keith

Marriage
Tillie Stein (Stone) married Jacob D Lendesman J/f/M 1932 Stepney 1c 482.

So that death for Tillie in 1993 born 1909 looks like the one!!.

I think Davis and Annie could be David and Fanny in 1911 and Annie died 1930/1 and dad David /Davis remarried to Tillie.

edit no looks wrong as Jacob Davis of same address 116 Leeside Cresent died 1955 born 1901.
Back to drawing board.

Maryb.

Yet another spelling variant, thank you very much, Mary, that helps a lot! I wonder how many other ways you can spell Landsman? ;-))

One possible interpretation might be that Hettie and Davis are a couple, and Annie is / was his mother. Does that make sense? Are there any other / better interpretations?

Infuriating that they then proceed to disappear!

Thanks again, Mary!

Keith

1930 Finsbury Islington
Davis landsman no 152 abode 55,Jane street E1
Also there Ralph Toitz abode 59,Amhurst Park.

1930 Electoral Roll
55,Jane Street Stepney.
Annie Londesman
DAVIS JACOB Londesman
HETTIE Londesman.

1931 55,Jane Street
Davis Jacob londesman
Hettie
Rachel Wiseboard.
No Annie.

Maryb.

Well, not sure on anything Keith, lol.

Hope Cert. doesn't take too long...

Chris :)

What a brilliant find, Chris, thank you! I hadn't any information on Samuel and Anna's deaths.

Puzzling, perhaps, that Abraham & Daby Toitz aren't listed.

Are you thinking that the Landsmans changed their names to Platter?

Thanks again Chris!

Keith

(just to add, Samuel and Annie Toitz, 1911, 46, New Road, Stepney, look to be listed on below)

http://www.dworkin-consulting.co.uk/FEDEDM/INDEX.HTM

(and a David and Fanny Platter , Death ages could match that 1911 posted page 1, lol)

Chris :)

http://www.jewishgen.org/

(still think above will be able to help, awaits that ordered Cert. now!)


edits

(that David Platter below)

https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=platter&yearOfDeath=1950&page=1#calendar

I'm not sure it will help, but I found this:

Nationality and Naturalisation
HO 144/8706
1928
Nationality and Naturalisation: Landsman, Lewis, from Russia. Resident in London. Certificate 16351 issued 17 August 1928.
Nationality and Naturalisation
HO 144/14169
1931
Nationality and Naturalisation: Landsman, Morris, from Russia. Resident in London. Certificate A19689 issued 22 April 1931.
Nationality and Naturalisation
HO 144/15260
1931
Nationality and Naturalisation: Landsman, David, from Russia. Resident in London. Certificate AZ608 issued 19 November 1931.

I will order the naturalisation certificate to see what it tells us.

Ancestry's info re ERs says:

"Registers were not published during the latter years of World War 1 (1916–1917) or World War 2 (1940–1944)."

So that explains some of their "disappearance".

But not what happened to Tilly & David after 1939 - unless they changed their name. They don't "re-appear" like Ralph and Hettie.

Barnett Platter 1902 married Violet Toitz 1906, daughter of Abraham Toitz, brother of Ralph Terry / Toitz.

And / but just to make it interesting, there was also a Barnett Toitz 1892, son of Samuel Toitz. He married Betsy, surname unknown as yet.

Keith

I went out for a couple of hours and you have all been very busy! Thank you!

My current hypothesis is that David & Tilly are of the same generation as Ralph and Hettie. It's possible that Hettie's parents were also David and Tilly.

I'm assuming the Tillie Landsman of the probate and death record is "my" Tilly, as my working hypothesis.

"Could they have changed their name"

I've found records of Landesmen AKA Landsman, so that's already a name change. There were a lot of Jews who changed their names (Toitz became Terry in one of the examples above).

Dora Toitz is a new name for me, I have no idea yet where she might fit in. Two Toitzs arrived in the UK, Abraham and Samuel, complete with families. Around the 1940s they all seem to have changed their name, most of them to Toye I think, but also at least one to Terry.

Joan Waxman (née Terry) was the daughter of Ralph and Hetty. Joan and Henry appear to have had a son Gregory 1960, it would be enlightening to be able to find him!

I need to find that probate for Dora.

It will be interesting to discover where they "disappeared" to during the war.

Thank you all for searching like this

Keith

Dora probate to Ralph Terry a Furrier.

Ralph terry 16/6/1907-1980 London.
Hetty Terry 1905-1966.

Hetty Terry of 103,Osbaldston road London N16 died 19/4/1966 same address as above left £6142
Probate to Ralph Terry a Furrier and Joan Waxman married woman.
Joan Waxman (their daughter ? ) and Henry Waxman next door to Ralph and Hetty Terry in 1958


Joan terry married henry P Waxman in 1956 9d 676.
I think this is your Ralph and Hetty Toitz ?

1911
Dorah landsman1865
Barnett 1867-1950
Morris 1893
Mary 1898
Ady 1907.

1931 59,Amhurst park
Ralph Toizt
Barnet Platter is this Landsman
Violet Platter.

Was Barnett related to David landsman??


Maryb.

Yes I saw the probate of Dora...don't know how she fits in. Violet Platter (in the probate) I think is her daughter

Jude

Can't see death records for either Hetty or Ralph, however.

Ralph's in the phone book in 1956.

Ralph Toitz
in the British Phone Books, 1880-1984
Name: Ralph Toitz
Address: 103 Osbaldeston rd N.16.'. STAmfd
Exchange: HI
Directory Title: London Surnames S - Z
Publication Year: 1956
Directory County: London
Page Number: 3338

Ralph and Hetty/Hettie are on ER's until 1951 on Ancestry:

Ralph-J Toitz
in the London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965
Name: Ralph-J Toitz
Year: 1951
County or Borough: Hackney
Ward or Division/Constituency: Stoke Newington and Hackney North
Street address: 103 Singer. Sidney

(Actually 103 Osbaldeston Road)

EDIT: they're there in 1952, too, although only Hetty's name shows on a search on Ancestry)



There's also a Dora Toitz until 1954:

Dora Toitz

in the London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965
Name: Dora Toitz
Year: 1954
County or Borough: Hackney
Ward or Division/Constituency: Stoke Newington and Hackney North
Street address: 33 Finsbury Park Road

Other people at that address (presumably a block of flats):

Lewis & Rebecca Tuckman
Jack & Nellie Goldberg
Jessie Collins
Elsie Bennett

EDIT:
Dora's probably not a relation - she's listed as a widow on her probate record in 1953