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Or John is the one who died
1911 says 5 born 1 died leaving Harry, Annie, Jacob, Ettie.

Maryb.

I still read the scan of the original as 2 Mo, but maybe to be certain you need to see the real original.

In fact, it makes no real difference, does it? 2 weeks or 2 months, either takes him out of the 2Q, but the date registered could easily be weeks or even months later couldn't it?

So I remain convinced by your argument and agree your conclusion.

Keith

Also, looked at the other way, if John and David are not the same person - where is David in 1901?

They must be one and the same.

After all the name changes, ArgyllGran, I think we're all mixed up!!

The travel record was indeed John, female, for some unaccountable reason I thought the "female" bit was wrong ...

The John I have included in the tree is indeed the one from the census record, but I hadn't spotted the "Mo" after the 2, and neither had the transcribers!!, thank you very much for that.

So that makes Jacob -> John possible, otherwise David (Jacob Davis) has a twin! Also explains why John has disappeared from the 1911 census and absence of a birth record. Or putting that another way, John only seems to appear in that C1901

Without hard evidence is hard to be 100% sure but it looks like a very good working assumption. Thank you!

Keith

Have looked at the image for 1901, and John was 2 months old, not 2 years.

Could he be David under another name?
David was Jacob Davis, so maybe John = Jacob?

Possible snag -
Jacob's birth was registered June qr of 1901, and the census was taken 31 March.
Perhaps the census should say 2 weeks, not 2 months, and having looked again, it could perhaps be "Wks" rather than "Mo"..

My conclusion - Jacob Davis = John = David.

EDIT:
Ignore this post - not new info!

--------------------------------


Well, perhaps this is the one you found, but in 1901 census - and it turns out he's a son of the Israel and Golda already mentioned by Mary on page 3 of this thread, and brother of David, Annie, and Ettie.

Here's a fuller version of the census posted by Mary:

Israel Landesman
in the 1911 England Census
Name: Israel Landesman
Age in 1911: 37
Estimated birth year: abt 1874
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Germany
Civil Parish: St George in the East
Search Photos: Search for 'St George in the East' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address: 55 Jane St
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: CAP MAKER WORKER
Registration district: St George in the East
Registration District Number: 19
Sub-registration district: St George and St John
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Piece: 1500
Household Members:
Name Age
Israel Landesman 37
Golda Landesman 36
Harry Landesman 12
David Landesman 10
Annie Landesman 8
Ettie Landesman 6


And here they are in 1901 (I don't think this has been posted already - if so, apologies to whoever posted it):

John Landesman
in the 1901 England Census
Name: John Landesman
Age: 2
Estimated birth year: abt 1899
Relation to Head: Son
Gender: Male
Father: Israel Landesman
Mother: Golda Landesman
Birth Place: St George in the East
Civil Parish: St George in the East
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch St George in the East
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address: 55 Jane Street
Registration district: St George in the East
Sub-registration district: St George North
ED, institution, or vessel: 17
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 312
Folio: 15
Page Number: 21
Household schedule number: 135
Household Members:
Name Age
Israel Landesman 28
Golda Landesman 23
Harry Landesman 2
John Landesman 2
Harris Klein 22 - boarder


EDIT:
Oh yes, I see you've already seen this, although it wasn't posted to the thread.

I don't see the travel record you mention, Keith.

There's this one, but the person is actually a woman named named Julia Landasman (not Landsman as on transcription) , and born 1903, not 1899:

John Landsman
in the UK, Outward Passenger Lists, 1890-1960
Name: John Landsman
Gender: Female
Age: 18
Birth Date: abt 1903
Departure Date: 9 Feb 1921
Port of Departure: Liverpool, England
Destination Port: New York, USA
Ship Name: Celtic
Shipping line: White Star Line
Official Number: 113476
Master: R O Jones

Thank you ArgyllGran, that's found it. I was aware of the Lendesmen spelling, but this is the first (and only?) Landasman.

No, not quite, there's a John Landasman departing Liverpool for NY in 1921. Travelling by himself apparently so difficult to know if he has any connection to "our" Landsman.

Looks as if John & Harry were twins but I can't find a birth for John. I imagine he had a more "central european" name, like Jacob Davis -> David. Even so I would have expected him to be registered with the same surname spelling as David.

Thanks again, ArgyllGran

It's on FreeBMD - but yet another spelling!

Births Dec 1902 (>99%)
LANDASMAN Annie St.Geo.East 1c 344

Also Jacob's and Harry's records are different spelling from what Mary posted:

Births Jun 1901 (>99%)
LENDESMEN Jacob Davis St. Geo. East 1c 326

Births Mar 1899 (>99%)
Landesman Harry St. Geo. East 1c 373

Mary

Please can you say where you found this record:

Annie landesman 1902 St George 1c 344

I've looked in "all the usual places" (including FreeBMD) without success.

Otherwise, I think I've traced everything you've all found and fitted it all together. Thank you all again!!

I think it's now a question of waiting for the certificates I have ordered to confirm some of the links. I'll report back when the certificates arrive.

Meanwhile I'll see if I can figure out how to trace relationships in Poland / Russia! Samuel and Abraham Toitz must have a common ancestor somewhere, but jewishgen is not easy to use ...

Keith

(Oops!, sorry folks, now see they have already been covered)

Chris :)

That is the correct Hetty Terry died 1966 wife of Ralph.
left money to Ralph and daughter Joan Waxman nee Terry

Maryb.

Deaths Sep 1953 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------
TOITZ Dora 79 Hackney 5c 509


Deaths Jun 1966 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------------
TERRY HETTY 61 HACKNEY 5B 557

(if somebody could cast an eye on Wills for above, are they relating?, that Hetty Birth 1905 on page 1)

https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills

(or Ancestry, 1955 for Dora)

Chris :)

(apologies, but must get moving here!)

Possibly Tilly / Lilly's birth record.
While trawling around on the search for your family, I've seen other Tilllies with Esther given as an alternative name - and vice versa.

Births Dec 1894 (>99%)
Stein Esther Mile End 1c 490

Hetty can also be a diminutive of Esther.

The surnames are on different pages of the GRO Index because the list is alphabetical, but it's the same record.
Tillie will have been known by both names at different times - probably born as Stein, but using (or maybe officially changed to) Stone.
Both names will be on the actual marriage cert.

Her age on the marriage cert will help to verify if she's Tilly / Lilly above or not.
Also her father's name.

They had a son 1933 Landsman mum nee Stein.
He married 1961 I think.

1911 Mile End 7,Nelson street Stepney 06 404 9kids 2 died
Albert Stein born Russia a tailor age 40
Sarah
Lilly actually looks like TILLY age 1 born St George

Tillie Stone O/N/D 1909 1c 282 so right birthdate.

Maryb

Yet another name change! Thank you ArgyllGran.

I agree that Stein / Stone / Stean looks probable. I've been assuming:

Name: Tillie Stein
Spouse Surname: Lendesmen
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1932
Registration district: Stepney
Inferred County: Middlesex
Volume Number: 1c
Page Number: 482

Name: Tillie Stone
Spouse Surname: Lendesmen
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1932
Registration district: Stepney
Inferred County: Middlesex
Volume Number: 1c
Page Number: 482

Maybe at a tangent, I find it strange that two names (Stone, Stein) appear in the marriage index on separate pages, both pointing to the same record - 1c 482. I wonder how that can happen? I feel another certificate order coming on ...

Keith

A possibility:

????

Tilly Stein
in the London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965
Name: Tilly Stein
Year: 1929
County or Borough: Tower Hamlets
Ward or Division/Constituency: Bethnal Green
Street address: 169 Globe Road

At same address:

Iris Rose Ivy Stein and Winifred Violet Stein.

Births Dec 1900 (>99%)
Stein Winifred Violet Mile End 1c 462

Births Mar 1899 (>99%)
Stein Iris Rose I Mile End 1c 534

Can't see a birth for Tilly.
On censuses she's Lily/Lilly (assuming I've found the right census record) - BUT can't see a birth of a Lily either.

Lily Stem
in the 1901 England Census
Record Image View
Name: Lily Stem
[Lily Stein]
Age: 7
Estimated birth year: abt 1894
Relation to Head: Daughter
Gender: Female
Father: John Stem
Mother: Lily Stem
Birth Place: Bethnal Green, London, England
Civil Parish: Mile End Old Town
Ecclesiastical parish: St Dunstan Stepney
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address:
Registration district: Mile End Old Town
Sub-registration district: Mile End, Old Town, Eastern
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 334
Folio: 35
Page Number: 62
Household schedule number: 418
Household Members:
Name Age
John Stem 33
Lily Stem 31
Lily Stem 7
Iris Stem 2
Winifred Stem 7/12


Lilly Stean (Stean is correct on image - they've changed their name slightly)
in the 1911 England Census
Name: Lilly Stean
Age in 1911: 7 (mistranscribed - 17 on image)
Estimated birth year: abt 1904 (should be 1894)
Relation to Head: Daughter
Gender: Female
Birth Place: London, United Kingdom
Civil Parish: Bethnal Green
Search Photos: Search for 'Bethnal Green' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address: 147 Cambridge Rd, Bethnal Green, London
Marital Status: Single
Registration district: Bethnal Green
Registration District Number: 17
Sub-registration district: Bethnal Green South West
ED, institution, or vessel: 15
Piece: 1432
Household Members:
Name Age
John George Stean 43
Lilly Stean 41 - 7 children, 3 living, 4 died.
Lilly Stean 7
Iris Stean 10
Winnifred Stean 8
Doris Lahn 5 - niece (surname actually Zahn)


Deaths Sep 1932 (>99%)
Stean Winifred V 32 Bethnal G 1c 102

Marriages Mar 1929 (>99%)
STEAN Iris R I Townsend Stepney 1c 284

Looks as if Landesman is the favoured spelling, thank you for finding it Mary.

I can see the family in 1901 and 1911.

I hadn't thought of a brother / sister combination, just goes to show how one can make obvious put potentially wrong assumptions!! But, I don't yet see a sister for Ettie / Hettie?

edit: duh, sorry, Annie is the sister.

It feels as if that has moved us a major step forward, Mary, thank you again. It seems to support my hypothesis of David & Tillie being the same generation as Hettie, not her parents.

Now the question is Tillie who? Options so far: Finkelstein, Stein, Stone.

Keith

Right here goes.

Harry Lendesman born st George 1899 1c 373
Jacob Davis lendesman 1901 St George 1c 326
Annie landesman 1902 St George 1c 344

1911 55,Jane Street (as on 1930/31 electoral records)
Israel Landesman born Germany 1874 cap maker
Golda 1875 Russia(nee Gimick ) married Mile end 1897 1c 882
Harry 1899
David (Jacob Davis) 1901
Ettie 1905 born St George.

Above people on 1901 at same address.

So Hetty/Ettie (1905 and Ralph with her brother and sister??
then brother Jacob Davis married Tillie 1932.


Israel/Gabriel 1873 died 1947 Stepney 5b 544
Maryb.