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This is birth/baptism that Sylvia found


Name:Eva Gladys Neale

Birth Date:21 Aug 1905

Baptism Date:10 Sep 1905

Baptism Place:Birmingham, Immanuel, Warwickshire, England

Address 5 *zell St

Father:
William Neale <<Carter

Mother:
Nelly Neale

Reference Number:DRO 12

Archive Roll:635

-------------------------------------


1911 Census

Name:William Neal

Age in 1911:33

Estimated birth year:abt 1878

Relation to Head:Head

Gender:Male

Birth Place:Birmingham

Civil Parish:Birmingham

County/Island:Warwickshire

Street address:5 Back 5 Oozells Street North Birmingham

Marital Status:Widowed

Occupation:Carter

Registration district:Birmingham

Registration District Number:384
Sub-registration district:Lady Woon

ED, institution, or vessel:2
Piece:17990

William Neal 33
Sariah Ann Pettifer 48
Flarence Neal 10
Glayds Neal 5 <<<<<<<<<<<<< Eva, using her middle name
Ellen Neal 4

Also, its still possible they could not write so whoever took the details could have just written what they heard so..............

Neal
Neale
Neil
Neill

All possible variations to consider :-D

I wonder if this is Gladys birth registration???


Births Dec 1905 (>99%)

Neal Eva Gladys Birmingham 6d 1

naughty naughty naughty :-)




It looks as if Sariah Ann Pettifer was married to a Samuel Pettifer


Samuel Pettifer is still alive in 1911, but shows himself as Widowed ,,,,,,,, he has their children with him


Sariah says she is Widowed on the 1911, when she is living as Housekeeper for William Neal ..........................


but the Pettifer's are obviously just living apart.



This was not at all unusual ................ marriages broke down just as often then as they do now, but divorces were very difficult to obtain, and fat too expensive for most people.

So couples separated, and got on with their lives.



I would take a bet that Gladys Neal and Ellen Neal are the children of Sarah Ann Pettifer and William Neal

This looks as if it might be William in 1901 ...... with his name mis-spelled. Note that someone has already noted that it should be Neal.

It is indeed Neal on the image of the census


1901 Census

Name: William Leal
[William Neal]
Age: 23
Estimated birth year: abt 1878
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Spouse: Ada F Leal
Birth Place: Birmingham, Warwickshire, England
Civil Parish: Birmingham
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England

Registration district: Birmingham
Sub-registration district: All Saints
ED, institution, or vessel: 14

Piece: 2848
Folio: 7
Page Number: 6
Household schedule number: 40

William Leal 23 Carter
Ada F Leal 24 Pen worker
Florence Leal 4/12




hmmmmmmmmmmmm .......... htis looks like Ada's death, but that leaves the question of who is the mother of Gladys and Ellen, as both were born after 1903


Deaths Mar 1903 (>99%)

Neal Ada Frances 26 Birmingham 6d 37




and this looks like William and Ada's marriage .............


Marriages Dec 1897 (>99%)

NEAL William Birmingham 6d 345
Riley Ada Frances Birmingham 6d 345

Joonie then also posted the following, thinking it might be William, but with the wrong age ................. it is not unusual for that to happen!!



might this be Wiliam in 1911, his age overstated a little?

Name: William Neal
Age in 1911: 33
Estimated birth year: abt 1878
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Birmingham
Civil Parish: Birmingham
County/Island: Warwickshire
Street address: 5 Back 5 Oozells Street North Birmingham
Marital Status: Widowed
Occupation: Carter
Registration district: Birmingham
William Neal 33
Sariah Ann Pettifer 48 widowed housekeeper
Flarence Neal 10
Glayds Neal 5
Ellen Neal 4

he has a daughter Florence ...

Florence did not die ....................


JoonieC found this ..................

I'm re-posting it for you ...............



This is surely Florence in 1901

Name: Florence Neal
Age: 18
Estimated birth year: abt 1883
Relation to Head: Servant
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Birmingham
Civil Parish: Hucknall Torkard
Ecclesiastical parish: Hucknall Torkard St Mary
County/Island: Nottinghamshire
Registration district: Basford
George Cartledge 59
Sarah H Cartledge 52
Mary Cartledge 73
Florence Neal 18

a possible marriage ...................

Marriages Jun 1901

CUTTS John Thomas Basford 7b 353
Neal Florence Basford 7b 353

so this could be her in 1911

Name: Florence Cutts
Age in 1911: 28
Estimated birth year: abt 1883
Relation to Head: Wife
Birth Place: Birmingham
Civil Parish: Bolsover
County/Island: Derbyshire
Street address: 28 St Whaley Thorns
Marital Status: Married
Registration district: Chesterfield
Johan Cutts 28 (it's John, not Johan) coal miner
Florence Cutts 28
John Cutts 9
Walter Cutts 8 born in Sutton

and unfortunately she had 4 other children who died



Buy Florence's marriage certificate to get the proof that it is her.


THEN look for her death under the name of Florence Cutts

i cant find either of those childrens death certs on freebmd. maybe i need more practice at this ! :-S

i ll buy that death cert tomorrow. thanks

Sarah ................


we have already said that we have been unable to find him on the 1911 Census .............. but there is a death registration that seems to be him in 1912


This means that we have not found hime ..................... but that does not mean that he is not alive in 1911


.............. he could have been missed out

............. his name could have been very badly mis-spelled and we haven't found it

............. he could even be on there under the wrong name .......... this does happen




I should buy that death certificate




You should be able to find death certificates for the children on freebmd, as long as they died before about 1965 / 1970, as freebmd only goes that far


Ancestry carries bmds until about 2005/2006

Its amazing that you have proved he was in prison in 1901.Im going to try and find out what he was in prison for, when he came out and what he did afterwards. He was the black sheep of the family according to rumor!
Where is he after 1901. he isnt on the next census is he?

i think also that they are the Neal missing children. Can i find death certificates for them on freebmd ?

It is also wise to also look for Neale ................


enumerators could always mis-spell names on censuses ...................... most of our ancestors were illiterate or barely literate, and would not know that there was a mistake.


Other mistakes are made when the modern-day transcribers have worked on old-fashioned handwriting to produce the records and indexes



who would have thought that Schofield could be seen as "Silufeld"????


or Hayhurst as "Porst"


Cadd, Ladd or Sadd ......... all very valid surnames, but often mis-transcribed as one or t'other





These are in addition to JoonieC's comment that Ancestry makes mistakes!




This is why both JoonieC and myself looked for Will* and Neal* ...... where * stands for 1 or more missing letters


I even looked for ne*l, in case the surname had been mis-spelled along the way as Neil



Moral ....................... NEVER, ever assume that the spelling you know now is what you will find on a census, or any other record :-)

Sarah, what I meant is that sometimes Ancestry misspells things when they transcribe records

NEAL could show up as HEAL for example, at Ancestry

We couldn't find anyone who looked like him, by name or age or date of birth



so the children in 1891 were

John Wm Neal 12
William Neal 10 born Birmingham
Florence Neal 7 born Birmingham
James Neal 5
Emma Neal 2

and the children in 1901 were

James Neal 16
Emma Neal 13
Mary J Fox 40
Willie Fox 12
James Fox 9

William and Florence would have left home by 1901 if they were living

from their birth records, neither had a middle name


the eldest, John William Neal, is in Sutton in Ashfield Notts in 1911, married



This is surely Florence in 1901

Name: Florence Neal
Age: 18
Estimated birth year: abt 1883
Relation to Head: Servant
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Birmingham
Civil Parish: Hucknall Torkard
Ecclesiastical parish: Hucknall Torkard St Mary
County/Island: Nottinghamshire
Registration district: Basford
George Cartledge 59
Sarah H Cartledge 52
Mary Cartledge 73
Florence Neal 18

a possible marriage

Marriages Jun 1901
Arnold John James Basford 7b 353
CUTTS John Thomas Basford 7b 353
MARRIOTT Martha Alice W Basford 7b 353
Neal Florence Basford 7b 353

so this could be her in 1911

Name: Florence Cutts
Age in 1911: 28
Estimated birth year: abt 1883
Relation to Head: Wife
Birth Place: Birmingham
Civil Parish: Bolsover
County/Island: Derbyshire
Street address: 28 St Whaley Thorns
Marital Status: Married
Registration district: Chesterfield
Johan Cutts 28 (it's John, not Johan) coal miner
Florence Cutts 28
John Cutts 9
Walter Cutts 8 born in Sutton

and unfortunately she had 4 other children who died



might this be Wiliam in 1911, his age overstated a little?

Name: William Neal
Age in 1911: 33
Estimated birth year: abt 1878
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Birmingham
Civil Parish: Birmingham
County/Island: Warwickshire
Street address: 5 Back 5 Oozells Street North Birmingham
Marital Status: Widowed
Occupation: Carter
Registration district: Birmingham
William Neal 33
Sariah Ann Pettifer 48 widowed housekeeper
Flarence Neal 10
Glayds Neal 5
Ellen Neal 4

he has a daughter Florence ...



Sarah once again can you acknowledge your replies, for instance that you have seen that William Neal was in prison in 1901?

Its the right spelling. no e on Neal.

Whats also odd is that two of his children Florence and William disappear off the census . I cant find their death certs either. What could have happened to them? Only 2 remain. 1, James i think was killed in action. Emma was my Great Grandma.

I cant see what happened to Florence and William junior.

I forgot to mention that I found the list of prisoners at HM Prison in Birmingham in 1911 ... just by asking Ancestry for all people in Birmingham called 'prisoner' ... and looked for any William or any Neal who might be our man (in case his name was spelt wrong or something) ... but no he just wasn't there in 1911

I did try to find William in 1911 .................. assuming that the death in 1912 was him, he should be on the 1911 census


but as JoonieC says, we couldn't find him


I did try looking by just using his initials, as you will find that many people in institutions (asylums, prisons, even sometimes workhouses) can be found under initials only ..... a way of keeping their privacy.


I could not find William anywhere



I did also look to see if I could find a court record for him ............. that could have told us what offense he was charged with and the length of his sentence


Nothing





One thing that you might want to try is to contact the Local Archives and Study Centre

ask them if they hold copies of newspapers for the period, and if they would be willing to search through them to see is they can find a report of his sentencing

OR ask if you can go yourself and search the records



There will probably be a charge

Sarah, you need to read the replies in the thread!

the very first message, from Gins, shows 'a' William Neal who is a prisoner in His Majesty's Prison in Birmingham

the way the information is copied can be confusing ... in a nutshell, that says:

1901
Name: William Neal
Age: 60
Estimated birth year: aboutt 1841
Relation to Head (of the institution): Prisoner
Birth Place: Market Bosworth, Leicestershire, England
Civil Parish: Birmingham
ED, *institution*, or vessel: His Majestys Prison


he has to be 'your' William Neal, because he was born the same year, in the same place, as your man, and there were not two William Neal-s the same :-)


Sylvia and I were both checking census records at the same time to make sure that the details for your William in 1891 matched up with the prisoner William Neal in 1901, so we both posted that 1891 census to show when and where your William was born, and indeed they match perfectly

so we can definitely say that your William Neal was in prison in 1901

I have just taken a look at the census image for 1901 to check the name of the prison, but it just says HM Prison, and your William's occupation was Market Porter.


Sylvia posted the 1901 census showing Sarah without William, just so we can all see the information you were talking about

then we looked to see whether Sarah and William were back together in 1911, but they weren't ...


and my suggestion is that your William is the man who died in Birmingham in 1912, but we haven't been able to find him in 1911

the death certificate would tell you whether he was still a prisoner when he died, or otherwise what his occupation and address were


I hope that is a little clearer now!

Google Birmingham Prison Records

Emma Neal was my Great Grandma. I remember her very well. She married George but he died before i was born.
Emmas daughter Sarah died young.

Miriam, Emmas Daughter was my Grandma. All on my mothers side. I think Emma had other children. Aubrey, Harold, George.

How can i find out if he was in Prison. I think the main prison there was Winston Green. Should i write to them?

Hello Sarah and welcome to the Community boards.



(I'll let Sarah know how to find her replies) :-)