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definitely nothing formal, no formal adoption in England until after 1928

it was very common for a child to take on the surname of their mother's (new) husband

and then also to fabricate a father on marriage ... just name the stepfather, or give the real father's given name (and possibly occupation) with the stepfather's surname, etc. ...


I use Ancestry, and just try different variations on the theme of a person - given name plus date of birth, surname plus place of birth, until hopefully I hit something!

I do think the George and Constance who settled/died in Rotherham are almost surely the children from the 1911 census

aha

Name: George Whiteley
Birth Date: abt 1866
Date of Registration: Mar 1944
Age at Death: 78
Registration district: Rother Valley
Inferred County: Yorkshire West Riding
Volume: 9c
Page: 786



just adding this for info ... the Annie Rowston whom Fanny is visiting in 1911

Marriages Dec 1877
Kirk Anne E. Retford 7b 29
ROWSTON Benjamin E. Retford 7b 29

(they are in Cleethorpes in 1891)

so no apparent family connection with Whiteley or Watson


and just to reiterate my question :-)
who are the other two people who have Constance Whiteley 1910 in their trees at this site?

if they are descendants they could well know who George and Fanny were and know something of Florence

someone else has what I would think is her husband in their tree:

Name: Albert Durham
Birth Date: 17 Feb 1906
Date of Registration: Mar 1972
Age at Death: 66
Registration district: Rotherham
Inferred County: Yorkshire West Riding
Volume: 2c
Page: 1928


also one of the people with Constance has the son I referred to in their tree

however ... Clarky you have put that son in your tree as well, and it's not allowed to put living people in your tree here without permission
(you could do it for your own info by turning the name into something like 'johnsmith' and using it as the surname only, so it would not show up on searches, for instance)

rather than just put names in your tree I hope you are contacting the people who have those names and are actually descended/related :-)

do any of you experts know what happens when someone like george takes on or adopts a child in those days? was it just a case of they changed their surname on things like the census? nothing formal like there is now?

i think I'm just getting punch drunk haha or obsessed. when i found two names i have been searching for (fanny and george) next door to each other in the same street both with a florence may- i was hoping for some weird connection.

what pages do you guys all use for your searches? I'm using ancestry and i swear I've looked for the last two days and couldn't come up with anything. maybe I'm over looking now. i seem to get different things each time i search and none of the entries you guys put on here- unless i key in specifics. they don't appear in wider searches. i often use bmd too but thats not helping lately either!

i did plump for a Constance amelia pairing, though i saw the durham option i went with the Hughes one- can't even remember why i went for that one. and i usually use bmd to find children form a pairing but it didn't bring anything for whiteley/hughes funnily enough. so thanks for the info on durham and the children ill take a look.
I hadn't managed to find anything for george watson whitely though... resorted to checking military records for him and his father didn't find anything.

george whiteley (seniors) death is still a great mystery too- there are a couple of deaths in the east riding regiment during WWI but i don't think these are him.

i think I'm trying to make things fit now to try and get answers and i should maybe calm down! lol :-\

looking for the other Whitel(e)y children

Births Dec 1901
WHITELEY George Watson Chorlton 8c 817

could match this death as he would not yet have been 64 in early 1965

Name: George W Whitely
Birth Date: abt 1902
Date of Registration: Mar 1965
Age at Death: 63
Registration district: Rother Valley
Inferred County: Yorkshire West Riding
Volume: 2c
Page: 792

there is no other birth to match that death



if Constance lived past 1969 (when middle names and birthdates were first included in the deaths index) this could be a match

Births Dec 1910
WHITELEY Constance A Grimsby 7a 537

Name: Constance Amelia Holloway
Birth Date: 25 Nov 1910
Date of Registration: Aug 2005
Age at Death: 94
Registration district: Northampton
Inferred County: Northamptonshire
Register Number: A70B
District and Subdistrict: 670/1A
Entry Number: 200

however she is pretty surely Constance A Dove who married Holloway in 1939 in Brixworth (birth reg Mar Q 1911)



a Constance A Whiteley married Durham in Rother Valley in 1938

her age at death matches Constance Amelia Whiteley

Name: Constance A Durham
Birth Date: abt 1911
Date of Registration: Jun 1961
Age at Death: 50
Registration district: Rotherham
Inferred County: Yorkshire West Riding
Volume: 2c
Page: 578



aha yes, this puts both George Watson Whiteley and Constance Amelia Whiteley in Rother Valley reg dist


There are two Durham-Whiteley births in Rother Valley, 1941 and 1945
distinctive names

the son seems to have married in Rother Valley in 1963 and had two children there but died in 2007

the daughter may be on the 2014 electoral roll in Cleveland



who are the other two people who have Constance Whiteley 1910 in their trees at this site?

Christina are you thinking of the Florence daughter of George and Sarah baptism?

I had thought that was not likely to be our Florence ... at least in any event it would not be consistent with the Florence daughter of Fanny theory ... if there is a baptism for a daughter of George and Fanny I have missed it ... ?

but there is an impossible duplication if our Florence is the one in the 1901 with George and Fanny ... she can't also be there with parents William and Fanny Fletcher :-)

(or ... is it 1891 when you say they live next door? in that case Christina is right anyway, two baptisms of same child different parents ...)

hahaha i think its hysteria- I've been staring at the records for days and have made no progress.. apologies for making your head spin too!! its driving me mad.. i will probably have to admit defeat on this one!! its amazing how i can so easily find relatives from years before, yet a great grandmother eludes me!

You're making my brain spin Clarky.

When I first saw your post, I thought it looked like a great coincidence. Then it slowly dawned on me that they can't possibly be the same Florence. She can't have been baptised twice, to different parents.

Or maybe it was just me thinking along those lines, and you were thinking of an entirely different explanation. Related families perhaps.

dunno if I'm making things fit but when I've been looking into the new theory that fanny was already florences Mum before she married george- i was looking for potential fathers for Florence (though i guess fanny wasnt listed as anything but a spinster when she married george)....... i found a florence may fletcher born 6 april 1893 to a fanny and william henry fletcher (hes a traveller) who live at 9 charles street- but quite strangely they live next door to George and sarah Whiteley (the one i found which is on the baptism record for florence may (mary) whiteley birthdate april 30th 1892 (baptised in july 1893) they live at 11 charles street... is this all too coincidental?

I've hit a standstill again with the two whitely children who survived- though they both have unusual names- I've not been able to trace who they married or when they died etc.. its really frustrating this branch of my tree!!! Constance amelia and george watson whiteley don't exist after the 1911 census!

what do you make of the coincidence? anything in it? not sure what ... maybe florence may is just a popular name!

haha, I actually meant to ask whether that might have been you Clarky who made the correction ... my name is all over records I'm not related to that I investigated in the pursuit of my own people too :-)

I think that Florence May Whiteley birth in Manchester is the one assumed to be the daughter of John and Mary, was that the names?, who was in Manchester in 1901

again here, I don't have access to Manchester baptisms at Ancestry, but it shows 3 Florence Watsons baptised in Manchester in 1893 but all show parents and I don't know whether they would show birthdates, to match up to birth registrations if possible

the Florence Watson birth reg I suggested was just an opening volley :-)
birth cert would be needed to rule in or out!

evening all- had a good look at everything everyone has contributed and just re-jigged my tree to go with fanny as florences Mum... it all looks very promising, from what i can tell most dates and places add up- only thing i havent searched for is a florence watson birth. Ive gone with the one listed by Joonie - until proven otherwise?! i think maybe you're right about choosing a random middle name as most of her mothers siblings seem to have a middle initial! and agnes' is M...

Births Jun 1893
Watson Florence Chorlton 8c 836

I like that the names and places all add up better than I've ever managed previously- and the theory is feasible.

to answer some of the questions- hahaha i made the correction suggestion to the baptism record as it looked more like 'may' to me than 'mary' as it had been transcribed?

Dea- i actually ordered the cert for that entry
Births Jun 1893
Whiteley Florence May Manchester 8d 255

at the time i didn't think it relevant and put to one side- I'm sure the dads name on it is john but ill double check in the morning..

thanks again people for the help :-)

Joonie ...............



good point re who did the correction on that baptism


This is what the note attached to the correction says


Florence May Whiteley rather than Florence Mary Whiteley
this is my relative and her name was florence may
Submitted by muppet760 on 14/03/2014




she could be contacted through Ancestry, as muppet760 is her site name on there




To add ..................


looking at the image of the Parish Register ..................


it is hard to say whether the vicar wrote May or Mary ......... could be May, but it's typical bad handwriting :-)


Address given is 11 Charles Street


Father occupation is Labourer

Just popped back in - have had the grandchildrem for the past 2 days + an overnight stay so I am a bit 'brain dead' but have we or haven't we discounted this very obvious birth reg - I can't see it in the thread?? :

Births Jun 1893
Whiteley Florence May Manchester 8d 255
..........

Lancs BMD:

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1893
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference

WHITELEY Florence M Central Manchester CEN/27/39


Dea x

hi clarky ... I had bungled up some names in my post and I have fixed them, and also I added further thoughts to it about the George and Sarah couple ... have a look back at it now and it should make more sense :-)



a question about the baptism SylviaInCanada posted

Name: Florence Mary Whiteley
[Florence May Whiteley]
Birth Date: 30 Apr 1892
Age: 1
Baptism Date: 19 Jul 1893
Parish: Newton Heath, St Augustine
Parish as it Appears: S Angustine, Newton Heath
Father's Name: George Whiteley
Mother's name: Sarah Whiteley

I don't have access ... it shows that someone has corrected the name in the record ... can this person be contacted through Ancestry or do they give any info about the family?



Dea I was wrong about the possible Spilsby connection

Fanny Watson / Fanny Whitely lived in Brinkhill in 1881 and gave that as her place of birth in a census after marriage

Brinkhill is in Spilsby reg dist ... as I said when I posted that 1881 census, ooops!!

but by 1891 she was in Louth reg dist and by 1901 Chorlton reg dist

sorry that should read joseph street- sometimes this auto corrects things to make no sense!

Goodness.... i've been desparate to jump in.. but i'm at work just now.. must admit that JoonieCloonie and Dea's new line of thinking hadnt even crossed my mind!! good thinking outside the box!

so i havent had time to digest all of what you have posted yet.. ill have a good mull over it tonight when i get home.. so have people definately ruled out a George and Sarah coupling and or is the George and Fanny coupling still the main thinking for post Florences mum?

I think my great aunty (although only five when her mum died) had a definate sense that her mum was from Manchester. I dont think youd maybe understand another location when youre five, so im wondering if she actually had a lancashire accent which is what makes her so aware her mum was not from grimsby. a long winded way of saying she was maybe in lancashire for quite some time? (long enough to sound different)

I havent picked out much from skimming though just now but noticed JoonieCllonies question
'is 64 Rutland Street (where George and Fanny were in 1911) the address where Florence's child was born?
My grandfather (Florences second child Walter Lampey Armin- whos birthday it would have been today!) lol was born at '4 back of 103 kent street grimsby'

Florence was found working as a servant at 26 Hildyard street (unless anyone ruled that theory out) and Fanny was 'visiting' Rutland street in 1911 census.

Florences husband (walter Lampey) bought a house in jospeh street which the children were raised in when Florence died in 1927. theyre all too close not to be linked so i think you guys are onto something. the theory about Florence being Fannys daughter from a previous marriage certainly looks promising since theres no trace of any thing else for George and any other wife- the leonora link is a good find (unless again people have ruled this out for whatever reason....

oh will i ever get to the bottom of it!? lol appreciate everyones efforts though certainly opening up fresh avenues for me :-)

I think Christina has ruled out the George and Sarah possibility there ... edit, no, that's not right really ... it's possible that is the right George, although I think a switch from confectioner to gardener is not likely ... but if it were the right George maybe there was a daughter Florence registered under that Sarah's surname if they were not married ?? but also our George in 1901 was born in Peterboro ... if that is our George ... which it seems to be


I dunno Dea, there isn't a connection to Spilsby reg dist for Fanny Watson I think

but she married George in Chorlton reg dist and they were in South Manchester in Chorlton reg dist in 1901, and Florence's (edit, sorry, I said Fanny and I meant Florence) place of birth in 1901 and 1911 (if that is the right Florence in 1911) was given as Manchester ... so I would take a look at that Chorlton birth as my first line of attack

young women in the early 1900s not uncommonly made their names a little bit fancier, often when they married ... adding a 'May' to give herself a middle name would not be surprising :-)

neither of my grandmothers had a middle name ... the one born in the 1890s was given a fancier version of her name by my grandfather who thought her name common ... my other grandmother always wanted one a middle name and used to say she would have wanted 'Mary'

The 1901 death for Sarah born 1865 may have been this one:

1891 England Census about Sarah Whiteley
Name: Sarah Whiteley
Age: 26
Estimated birth year: abt 1865
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: George Whiteley
Gender: Female
Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Gorton
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mark
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

View image
Registration district: Chorlton
Sub-registration district: Ardwick
ED, institution, or vessel: 48
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 3172
Folio: 95
Page Number: 33
Household Members:
Name Age
George Whiteley 32 confectioner - Ashford, Kent
Sarah Whiteley 26 Manchester
Thomas Pollett 49 cousin
Emma Pollett 16 "
Jessie Pollett 12 "
Thomas Pollett 7 "

This may even be the Sarah and George we're looking for. I can't find a marriage for this couple. I can't find a George Whiteley born in Ashford, Kent anywhere else. Nor can I find a George Whiteley born in Peterborough anywhere else. Maybe he wasn't always a gardener.

There's an awful lot of maybes there though.

I had been following that train of thought too Jooney and had also come up with this 'possible' birth for Florence:


Name: Florence May Watson
Event Type: Birth Registration
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration Year: 1894
Registration District: Spilsby
County: Lincolnshire
Event Place: Spilsby, Lincolnshire, England
Volume: 7A
Page: 585
Line Number: 127

As you say, it may be that she was brought up in Lancashire and so thought that was where she was born?

BUT, there are a few other 'possibles'. :-(

Dea x

hello all, I'm just wondering whether it's been considered that Florence was in fact Fanny Watson's daughter from before the marriage to George

this is Fanny in 1891 ... place of birth and sister's name Leonora match with her place of birth in later census 'Marchapple' and name of one of her (possible) daughters Olive Leonora Whiteley

Name: Fanny Watson
Age: 14
Estimated birth year: abt 1877
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: John Watson
Where born: Marsh Chapel, Lincolnshire, England
Civil Parish: Beesby in the Marsh
County/Island: Lincolnshire
Registration district: Louth
John Watson 58 ag lab
Fanny Watson 14
Agnes M Watson 12
Leonora Watson 11

Marsh Chapel is in Louth reg dist

conveniently there are two possible births, one to match the age on each census, pre and post marriage (and there is no death record for the first)

Births Dec 1872
WATSON Fanny Louth 7a 577
Births Sep 1876
Watson Fanny Louth 7a 619

the 1876 registration would certainly match her age in 1891

of course I can't find the family in 1881 to check Fanny's age

aha here she is in 1881 in Brinkhill in Spilsby reg dist (which is what the other later census gives as Fanny's Whitely's birthplace)

Mary A. Watson 37
Herbert J. Watson 13
Fred Watson 11
Charles H. Watson 8
Elizabeth A. Watson 5
Fanny Watson 4
Agnes M. Watson 2
Leonora M. Watson 1

so it seems the 1876 birth is the one


there is no Florence May Watson birth that stands out as likely to be your girl, but might this be possible?


I would also tend to the theory that this is the right Florence in 1911 given how close geographically to the subsequent birth

the details just for the record

Name: Florrie Whiteley
Age in 1911: 19
Estimated birth year: abt 1892
Relation to Head: Servant
Birth Place: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Clee
County/Island: Lincolnshire
Street address: 26 Hildyard St
Marital Status: Single
Registration district: Grimsby


if it is the right one in 1901 in South Manchester in Chorlton reg dist

George Whitley 37 gardener
Fannie Whitley 26
Florence Whitley 8

she seems to have lived in Manchester as a young child and may well have thought she was born there, or been born there? ... I am only a little confused :-)

possibly?

Births Jun 1893
Watson Florence Chorlton 8c 836

Chorlton reg dist being also where George and Fanny married


is 64 Rutland Street (where George and Fanny were in 1911) the address where Florence's child was born?

oops sorry Rose, cchristinaS might have answered that already in her post of 11 Aug 2014 12:19 saying that florence with parents John and Mary was still with them in manchester in 1911.... back to the george sarah fanny theory..... :-(