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The certificate states that she was born on 21st April 1873.
although her actual birthday was as far I know on the 5th May 1873
and was named as Mary Ann McKay, father Michael McKay ( Soldier )
she was born in Endell St Hospital. St Giles.
So something dosen't seem right here.

Im impressed you found John Messenger on 1871 & 1891 census I coulden't find any trace of him. only on the 1881..
I will be away now till Sunday, but hopefully will catch up with you then, so pleased you have helped, fill in a few gaps.. Jean

Name:
Annie Nicholson[Annie Messenger]
Gender:Female
Marital Status:
Widowed Age:33
Birth Date:1877
Marriage Date:2 Jan 1910
Marriage Place:Parish Church of Warrington, Lancashire, England
Father: John Messenger
Spouse: James Mccauley (Father Peter)


Marriages Sep 1892 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------------
Messenger Annie Warrington 8c 276
Nicholson John Warrington 8c 276

(living Warrington 1901)

Chris :)

(not wanting to confuse further!, but noticed above)

John (Graham) Messenger seems to change jobs often - on the 1871 he's a mariner, on the 1881 a stonemason and in 1891 he's a labourer.

This is his merchant seaman's record:

Merchant Seamen Transcription

First Name JOHN
Last Name Messenger
Year Of Birth 1838
Birth Month -
Birth Day -
Birth Place Maryport
Birth County Cumberland
Age 17
Place MARYPORT
Date Range 1853-1857
Discharge Number -
Identity Certificate Number -
Piece Number 61
Card Type -
Series BT116

It's not impossible he went to America.

This is John Messenger with his first wife in 1871:

JOHN MESSENGER HEAD Mariner Male 32 1839 Maryport, CUMBERLAND
MARY JANE MESSENGER WIFE - Female 24 1847 Broughton, CUMBERLAND

Street EVAN STREET
Parish SALFORD
Town -
City SALFORD
County Lancashire

and this is his first marriage:

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Mar 1864
Messenger John Graham Cockermouth 10b 677
Ritson Mary Jane Cockermouth 10b 677

Jean, are you sure about that 1873 birth year?

Is this the record you ordered?

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Births Jun 1875
Messenger Ann Warrington 8c 194

I'm puzzled by what you said earlier "she was born 5th May 1873 but dont think it is the correct one, it says she was in Holburn London and her father was Michael Mckay, the mother was Mary Ann Thompson this is so"

Are you saying you ordered a birth certificate for someone called Ann Messenger but it said her father was Michael McKay?

Could you tell us all of the information from the certificate that you have got.

Regarding Samuel, it's very odd looking at the image - in the column for his age it actually looks like "181" and it has been transcribed on Ancestry as age 8.

My Grandmother is Ann Messenger born 5th May 1873, . if she isent John Messenger's child, she may just have taken his name, which some times did happen.

Jean

Thought that Samuel Messenger was John Messengers son and not Margaret's as she would have been to young to have an 18 yr' old son, in 1881, also he had been born in America, so maybe , John Messenger had been married to some else over there ? like you said I think it is a case for Miss Marples.

Hello Jean, pleased you got back here!

Who is your grandmother?

ADDED:
On the 1881 census there is an Ann Messenger born 1875, so that is 6 years younger than William. In between them were two other children who both died so that accounts for the gap.

This is the biggest mystery ever, have trying for 18 months to find her origin.I found the extracts from Wigan papers, but coulden't find anything about the incident in the Warrington papers.
I am thinking that my Grandma, maybe wasent John Messengers child, as there is a 6 year gap between her and Billy, in the 1881 census., but dont really know. also dont know if they were even married.

But you havel been so helpful, and thank's once again

Jean

Thanks so much for all your help on this matter, Margaret was attacked on the train and died from her injuries, july 1888 aged 39, we found her death certificate in Wigan, . it was an open verdict,dont know where her partner was at the time, but her daughter
( My Grandma ) then aged only 15 went to identify the body, which I thought very strange.still cant find Margaret Messenger's maiden name.

Sent for my Granma's birth cert. she was born 5th May 1873 but dont think it is the correct one, it says she was in Holburn London and her father was Michael Mckay, the mother was Mary Ann Thompson this is so

(not sure on things Tattoo MC, but sounds like something for Miss Marple, lol)

Chris :)

(hope Jean arrives soon!)

I was wondering about this birth also, given the location on the 1871:

James Mckay, "Scotland, Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950"
Name: James Mckay
Gender: Male
Christening Date:
Christening Place:
Birth Date: 10 Jun 1869
Birthplace: CAMBUSNETHAN,LANARK,SCOTLAND
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: James Mckay
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Margaret Reid
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C11628-1
System Origin: Scotland-ODM
GS Film number: 6035516

I looked at that one MC. I thought it was Js perhaps meant to be Jas.

I don't see the above Margaret and James on later census.

It's just a gut feeling, Dea. Just seems so odd all his children having McKay as middle name


EDIT

This looks like the birth of the Wishaw James on the 1871 census

Name: James Mckay
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 18 Jan 1868
Birth Place: New Monkland,Lanark,Scotland
Father: James Mckay
Mother: Margaret Gordon
FHL Film Number: 6035516

Curious about this

New York, Passenger Lists, 1820-1957

Name: MS. Mgt Mckay (it's Mrs, not MS)
Arrival Date: 23 Sep 1871
Birth Date: abt 1848
Age: 23
Gender: Female
Ethnicity/ Nationality: Scottish (Scotish)
Place of Origin: Scotland
Port of Departure: Glasgow, Scotland
Destination: United States of America
Port of Arrival: New York, New York
Ship Name: Australia

Can't make out if her 1 year old male child is Js or Jo

I'd say that was a good contender Rootgather.

I had been looking along those lines too rootgatherer i.e. Mr. Edmond(s) being a stepfather but I have not been able to find anything to substantiate this theory.

Dea x

Perhaps clutching at straws here. I am wondering if James was born a McKay and Edmonds was a stepfather's name he had taken? It is unusual for most of his children to have McKay as a middle name.

Looking at this one in 1871

Name: James Mckay
Age: 2
Estimated birth year: abt 1869
Relationship: Son
Mother's name: Margaret Mckay
Gender: Male
Where born: Wishaw, lanarksh
Registration Number: 628
Registration district: Cambusnethan
Civil Parish: Cambusnethan
Town: Wishaw
County: Lanarkshire
Address: 93 Burghill 4th Rod
Occupation: Brass Finisher Wife
ED: 20
Household schedule number: 106
LINE: 18
Roll: CSSCT1871_120
Household Members:
Name Age
Kowes Caring 25
Helen Caring 35
William Grodey 15
George Grodey 10
Margaret Mckay 22
James Mckay 2


Margaret is described as a Brass finishers wife. Her place of birth is given as Barass, linlithgowsh
(Maybe Bo'ness, Linlithgowshire?)

Yes, I think we can eliminate that family too MC.

James is consistent about his birthplace but not seeing many Edmond families in Wishaw.

Not seeing any possibles for Samuel on shipping records either.

I did look at those Scottish census that Rootgatherer posted but wasn't too sure about them as James seems to be consistent with his birth year 1869/70 on marriage and 1901 & 1911 census, also birthplace of Wishaw. Father stated on marriage as an engineer.
EDIT: However, not impossible that a man could claim to be older to hide an age gap with older wife nor overstate father's occupation.

But we can probably rule that Margaret out as the one who became Margaret Messenger who was in Warrington in 1881.