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Not sure if this may be the same parents as John & sarah are popular names, but may be worth noting?

name: James Smith
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 08 Nov 1778
baptism/christening place: St. Martin-at-Palace Church, Norwich, Norfolk, England
father's name: John Smith
mother's name: Sarah
indexing project (batch) number: I02576-2
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1526323


name: Mary Smith
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 02 Aug 1778
baptism/christening place: Norwich, Norfolk, England
father's name: John Smith
mother's name: Sarah Smith
indexing project (batch) number: I05568-4
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1526853


name: Sarah Smith
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 18 May 1777
baptism/christening place: St. Martin-at-Palace Church, Norwich, Norfolk, England
father's name: John Smith
mother's name: Sarah
indexing project (batch) number: I02576-2
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1526323


name: Eliz Smith
gender: Female
birth date: 14 May 1777
birthplace: Earsham, Alburgh, Norfolk, England
father's name: John Smith
mother's name: Sarah Smith
indexing project (batch) number: I07481-5
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1526814


name: Jonathan Smith
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 04 Dec 1778
baptism/christening place: Burnham-Norton, Norfolk, England
father's name: John Smith
mother's name: Sarah
indexing project (batch) number: I03901-2
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1565274


name: Edwd Smith
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 12 Mar 1777
baptism/christening place: Methwold, Norfolk, England
father's name: Jno Smith
mother's name: Sarah
indexing project (batch) number: I07495-1
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 2186649


name: Sarah Smith
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 30 May 1778
baptism/christening place: Methwold, Norfolk, England
father's name: John Smith
mother's name: Sarah
indexing project (batch) number: I07495-1
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 2186649


name: Sar Smith
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 17 Nov 1776
baptism/christening place: SAINT MARTIN AT PALACE,NORWICH,NORFOLK,ENGLAND
father's name: Jn. Smith
mother's name: Sar
indexing project (batch) number: C04790-1
system origin: England-ODM
source film number: 894701



name: Benjamin Smith
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 20 Aug 1815
baptism/christening place: SUFFOLK COUNTY BTS, SUFFOLK, ENGLAND
birthplace: HOPTON
death date: 10 Sep 1815
father's name: John Smith
mother's name: Sarah
indexing project (batch) number: C13160-1
system origin: England-ODM
source film number: 952321

Wow Janet, fantastic research.
Firstly, I said that to ELIMINATE Robert and Susannah (from Ely Place), we need an 1800 or earlier marriage. (Because then it would have been legitimate and Robert would have been stated as his father.)
Your proposal regarding Sarah as Susannah's mother is one I didn't think of, and an excellent angle to work off.
Witts to the Smith / Brees marriage are
Sarah Smith
Robert Chambers.

The Fish connection doesn't occur until Frederic's grandaughter Eliza married Albert, my great grand parents :)

Will check back in a little later...dinner then a spot of telly
:-D

Hi Wendy

Sorry if the info provided does not help with your research into your relative Frederick or the Ely Place couple Robert and Susannah Smith but.....

I'm Confused - if they were married c1800 or before would Sarah and/or Frederic not have had their father shown - rather than in Sarah's case shown as 'No Father's Name given' and isn't Frederic Leake Smith shown without a father's name?

Just to clarify as I had the above fact in mind: I used a marriage search criteria of a Robert Smith to a Susannah (no surname) from 1800 to 1871 (hence the wide range referred to on my earlier post) - because on the Census records they are both shown as Smith - perhaps indicating a marriage prior to the information given on census returns (but not always as I know from my family). The earliest Robert Smith marriage to show on 'Search GRO' taking place in London was Robert Fish Smith shown above. I did not limit my search to London but to England and selected the London ones - and a Norfolk one for you - as being most likely to be the Ely Place Smiths. I also searched by Susannah Smith to a Robert Smith - there were 2 possibles - Lancashire and Yorkshire, which I did not include.

So, are you now asserting they married before C1800? ie between or quickly after potentially Sarah Smith's birth (Feb 1799) Shoreditch and Frederick's birth (1800) Norfolk? So making the 'track' of Susannah as follows - Pregnant in Norfolk, off to Shoreditch, give birth to Sarah, return to Norfolk get pregnant again, have Frederick, get married to Robert (born in Norfolk) and then at some point between that and the 1841 Census Susannah, Robert, Frederick and possibly Sarah (if she is Frederick's sister/half sister) go back to London?

Also, just in case you wonder why I included the unrequested and not so helpful death record - it would show who registered the death - perhaps a son!! A long shot I know but as that was the ONLY death of a Robert Smith born c1778 using search criteria Robert Smith 1778 +/- 5 years, deaths registered from 1871 to 1910 in both London and Middlesex - I say only with the exception of one in Meracaibo which I decided couldn't be the one. If, just possibly if, the person who registered the death was called Frederick there would be your proof, or the address given of the informant might lead to other lines of enquiry.

MY GOODNESS - I was just going to look at the details you had provided on "Another angle is that Susannah moved to Middlesex/Essex with her babe/s and married after" to ask why you had Essex in for Susannah, as I cannot recall seeing Essex referred to before - and have just noticed that you are researching 'Fish' in Essex - well I think that there is a very strange coincidence in that and the fact that I turned up a Robert Fish Smith marrying a Susannah!

Still can't possibly be your Robert and Susannah as far too late to be marrying in 1837!

If you had been able to give me the name of the other witness on Frederick's Marriage Cert/s (or even other details if you have the cert) I was going to do a search on the other name, check the Census records to see if there was another connection that might lead to a confirmation (names/addresses) - or otherwise - of any family relationships between the individuals named in your threads.

Janet

Ok....found this - Looks like Robert may be Susannah's brother if this is him, which means Robert is Frederick's Uncle. Different parish again, but possible as the age is right - What do you think?


Name: Robert Smith
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 24 Nov 1777
baptism/christening place: Whitwell, Norfolk, England
father's name: John Smith
mother's name: Sarah
indexing project (batch) number: I0

Could this be your Susannah?

name: Susannah Smith
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 06 Nov 1790
baptism/christening place: East Dereham, Norwich, Norfolk, England
father's name: Johnson Smith
mother's name: Elizabeth
indexing project (batch) number: I03796-8
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1545212

Dee

OOOPPPS.... can't be - she would have been 10 when Frederick was born. Sorry


This one might be worth keeping a note of.....
name: Susannah Smith
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 10 Feb 1787
baptism/christening place: St. Nicholas', Yarmouth, Norfolk, England
birth date: 08 Jan 1787
birthplace: St. Nicholas, Great Yarmouth, Norfolk, England
father's name: Ambrose Smith
mother's name: Elizabeth
indexing project (batch) number: C16315-8
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1526328


Another one worth noting......
name: Susannah Smith
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 27 Jan 1781
baptism/christening place: Cawston, Norfolk, England
father's name: Henry Smith
mother's name: Christian Smith
indexing project (batch) number: I07397-7
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1657158


And this one......

name: Susanna Smith
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 05 Aug 1781
baptism/christening place: Norwich, Norfolk, England
father's name: Robert Smith
mother's name: Ann Smith
indexing project (batch) number: I05568-0
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1526853


What about this one....there is a Sarah???? right age to have Frederick in 1800. Great Ellingham is only about 10 miles from East Dereham. Sarah Smith could have been Frederick's grandmother????

name: Susanna Smith
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 23 Jan 1780
baptism/christening place: GREAT ELLINGHAM,NORFOLK,ENGLAND
father's name: John Smith
mother's name: Sarah
indexing project (batch) number: P01171-1
system origin: England-ODM
source film number: 0994074 IT 19

Dee

Are these of interest to you?
Robert Smith & Susan Bullen married 27/2/1804 Loddon, Norfolk
Robert Smith & Susannah Wince 17/11/1805 Great Yarmouth, Norfolk
Robert Smith & Susan Nichols 11/10/1808 Upwell, Norfolk

Dee

Great work Annie, but remember, Robert and Susannah were born C1778
I think the educated way to go is to see if Robert and Susannah were married C1800.
To eliminate this couple and Susannah herself, I think to find their marriage before or at the time of Frederic's birth.
Another angle is that Susannah moved to Middlesex/Essex with her babe/s and married after.
The death record looks very promising, though doesn't help much with what we are looking for.
:-)

Robert Smith Death (search criteria b 1778 +/- 5 years, registered from 1871 to 1910)

Name: SMITH, RobertRegistration district: [?] St. George Hanover Square County: LondonYear of registration: 1871Quarter of registration: Oct-Nov-Dec Age at death:90 Volume no: 1A Page no: 289

Robert Smith to Susannah marriages:

Two of interest: Robert Smith to Susannah Oxer - Norfolk 1846

and

Smith ? 1860 - I did the search Robert Smith to Susannah Smith but the image is damaged (could be Susan)


Name:SMITH, Robert
County:London
Year of registration:1840
Quarter of registration:Jan-Feb-Mar
Volume no: [?]1
Page no: [?]20
Robert Smith married one of the following people

MACKEY, Ann
THOMAS, Hannah
WEBER, Susannah

JACOB, John
MARTIN, Joseph
PULSCHEN, Christopher


Name:SMITH, Robert
County:London
Year of registration:1841
Quarter of registration:Jan-Feb-Mar
Volume no: [?]1
Page no: [?]17
Robert Smith married one of the following people

GODDARD, Sarah
KEARLEY, Rebecca
RODWAY, Mary Ann
TURRELL, Susannah Elizabeth

HAWKINS, George
HINTON, Thomas Vincent
WARD, Edward



Name:SMITH, Robert
Registration district: [?]Kings Lynn
County:Norfolk
Year of registration:1843
Quarter of registration:Oct-Nov-Dec
Volume no: [?]13
Page no: [?]466
Robert Smith married one of the following people

BURTON, Susannah
KING, Matilda
LANGLEY, Lucy Bridget
WRIGHT, Mary Ann

BEETON, Edmund
WOODS, Henry

Robert Smith married Susannah Oxer [?]

Name:SMITH, Robert
Registration district: [?]Wayland
County:Norfolk
Year of registration:1846
Quarter of registration:Apr-May-Jun
Volume no: [?]13
Page no: [?]571
________________________________________

Name:OXER, Susannah
Registration district:Wayland
County:Norfolk
Year of registration:1846
Quarter of registration:Apr-May-Jun
Spouse's last name:Not available before 1912
Volume no:13
Page no:571


Name:SMITH, Robert Fish
Registration district: [?]Westminster St. Margaret
County:London
Year of registration:1837
Quarter of registration:Oct-Nov-Dec
Volume no: [?]1
Page no: [?]364
Robert Fish Smith married one of the following people

BURT, Ellen
PYSDEN, Susannah

BURT, William
SAUNDERS, Richard


Name:SMITH, Robert
Registration district: [?]Shoreditch
County:London
Year of registration:1848
Quarter of registration:Oct-Nov-Dec
Volume no: [?]2
Page no: [?]377

Robert Smith married one of the following people

DUMAS, Maria Louise
GRAHAM, Eliza
HAXELL, Ellen
WALKER, Susannah

BOWMAN, Charles
DEARLOVE, John
LEACH, John


Name:SMITH, Robert George
Registration district: [?]Poplar
County:London
Year of registration:1850
Quarter of registration:Apr-May-Jun
Volume no: [?]2
Page no: [?]361
Robert George Smith married one of the following people

KILSBY, Susannah Lindsey
PYLE, Isabella Margaret
SPEDDING, Margaret Isabella
WHITEHOUSE, Martha

POOR, John
HOWSON, John Dorlin
IRELAND, James


Name:SMITH, Robert
Registration district: [?]Newington
County:London
Year of registration:1852
Quarter of registration:Jan-Feb-Mar
Volume no: [?]1D
Page no: [?]189
MarriageFinder™: [?] Robert Smith married one of the following people

HARMES, Caroline
NEWTON, Susannah

BROWN, John


Name:SMITH, ?
Registration district: [?]?
County:
Year of registration:1860
Quarter of registration:Oct-Nov-Dec
Spouse's last nameNot available before 1912
Volume no: [?]?
Page no: [?]?

Image damaged but near the end it appears to show a name Susan (Smith) –not possible to make out the Volume etc but could be E London

Hi Wendy

I got the Sarah Smith details above from information posted at 14:56 on 20/5/2010 on your 'frederick' thread :

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.page/board/ancestors/ancestors%20of%20frederick/thread/1217401?page=1

assuming you were still looking for a Sarah Smith.

1) Where was his (2nd) marriage - was it Bethnal Green in 1838?
2) Do you have the Cert or only information from the Cert?
3) Do you have the name of the other witness?

I am finding it difficult to 'track' Susannah - If she was born in Norfolk, had a child Sarah in Shoreditch in 1799, then back to Norfolk, pregnant again with Frederic, had him in Norfolk, in 1800 - back to London again before 1841 - then there is the birth of Robert Joseph Smith abt 1827 to a Robert & Susan Smith in London. It is difficult to connect whether they are the same people - as Smith is a VERY common name.

Do you have a connection of the Robert Joseph Smith to Frederick (Leake) Smith. Also where / when did his first marriage take place - was that a London marriage placing him and his possibly his mother (Susannah) in London?

You are looking for a marriage for Susannah and Robert - may be they were both Smiths and just didn't bother to marry?

I will look for some Robert/Susannah marriages for you in London - but it will probably be a wide range

Janet

Hi Jannie. I really don't know who Susannah is, at first I looked around East Dereham, but could only find 1 suitable candidate in Susannah, daughter of Bartholomew and Mary (Trollop). I did find some more base babes to a Susannah Smith in the same parish. As more information came in regarding Frederic, I started to search for Sarah, who was a witness at his wedding. Because the name is so common, and with very little to go on except for Frederic and his marriages and children, I have used hunches and leads to eliminate people. Thankyou, that is a great lead to work on regarding Sarah.
At first I thought perhaps Susannah was from East Dereham, then worked on the theory that she may have come from Middlesex area and went to Norfolk to work, where she had Frederic, then returned.
Frederic was born July 1800, so quite possible Sarah was his older sister.
I still think Susannah and Robert may be a connection, and would really like to find their definite marriage record to either eliminate or confirm them. However, so far we can only find 2 sons, no Sarah...BUT it is also possible Frederic and maybe Sarah too were from an unrecognised union. Could Robert and Susannah have been married illegally? Then remarried? Then again, maybe it's just one of the huge coincidences that causes headaches LOL.
So all I have to go on is Frederic LEAKE Smith, Sarah Smith a witness, and the Smith names on Ely place at the same time. :-S

Can I just confirm - is this who you want information about ?


Sarah Smith
B 26 Feb 1799
St Leonard's, Shoreditch.
Mother Susannah
No father's name given.

And do you think that Susannah (mother of above) is the mother of Frederic Leake Smith b1800 in Norfolk? or have I missed something?

Howdy.
It might be easier for you to take a look at a previous thread where we found Frederic's birth details, and the search for Leake.

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.page/board/ancestors/ancestors%20of%20frederick/thread/1217401?page=1

Unfortunately no one has been able to help with the Leake connection, so working back to Sarah Smith etc.

:-)

Ok. admittedly I haven't read all the thread.

Is there a previous family connection to the name Leake? it was quite common for a base born child to carry his father's surname as a middle name and wondered if this might apply?

TY Christina.
TY Dee.
Regrading Frederic, and to re clarify.
He was base born to Susannah Smith, East Dereham, 1800, baptised as Frederic Leake Smith.
He never ever used the name Leake in his life.
Now, we know his father was unknown, as was written on his first marriage certificate, and on his 2nd marriage, just Susannah's name.
I know it is going to be extremely hard to find his father, so have been trying to find out more about his mother, which we have discussed in a seperate thread. Because I have nothing 100% positive to work on, other than her name, I am having to eliminate Susannah's in order to try and find her.
While looking through the census', I discovered Sus. and Rob. Smith, from Norfolk, with the appropriate age, living on the same road/street as Frederic. Because the sons, and their children all lived relatively close to each other, even next door to each other, you can understand how I couldn't ignore the couple living so close by.
So in order to eliminate her as his mother, as relatives, or even related, I have to find out more about them.
Despite some ends not matching up, I still feel that they are connected.
So far no one can find the Sarah connection.

:-D

I suspect Robert Smith really came from Harleston (not Hulston). This is the next village along from Bungay. He probably said Bungay for one of the censuses as it is better known.

Ely Place no longer exists in Shoreditch. But, Shoreditch is next to Bethnal Green, so it can't have been that far away. (Just realised that JannieAnnie has already explained that. In much more detail than I did).

Wendy, presumably this is Frederick in 1841?

1841
Name: Frederick Smith
Age: 40
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1801
Gender: Male
Where born: East Dereham, Norfolk, England

Civil parish: Bethnal Green
Hundred: Ossulstone (Tower Division)
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

View image

Registration district: Bethnal Green
Sub-registration district: Green
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 692
Book: 5
Folio: 39
Page Number: 13
Household Members:
Name Age
Frederick Smith 40
Elizabeth Smith 25
William Smith 20
Alfred Smith 13
Henry Smith 6 Mo

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Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 692; Book: 5; Civil Parish: Bethnal Green; County: Middlesex; Enumeration District: 12; Folio: 39; Page: 13; Line: 4; GSU roll: 438808.




AND in 1851
Name: Fredrick Smith
Age: 50
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1801
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Elizabeth Smith
Gender: M (Male)
Where born: East Dosham, Norfolk, England

Civil parish: Bethnal Green
Ecclesiastical parish: St Simon Zelotes
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability:

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Registration district: Bethnal Green
Sub-registration district: Green
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 57
Piece: 1540
Folio: 91
Page Number: 15
Household Members:
Name Age
Fredrick Smith 50
Elizabeth Smith 33
Eliza Smith 14
Henry Smith 10
John Smith 8
David Smith 4
Emma Smith 1
William Smith 29

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Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 1540; Folio: 91; Page: 15; GSU roll: 174770.


Wendy

I am a little confused as to what it is you are trying to find out. Can you confirm the following...
You have a Frederick Smith B1800 whose mother is Susannah Smith of East Dereham . When Frederick married, the witness was a Sarah Smith.
Are you trying to find out who his father and mother were (we know of Susannah).
1 How do you know his mother is Susannah Smith? ie what documentation have you to prove this? a baptism would have a father (if not illigitamate)
2 Are you assuming that the Robert and Susannah from norfolk are the parents?

I am thinking that Frederick's mother may have been unmarried at the time of having Frederick and that Sarah may be an aunt.

I have listed the following marriages from between 1801 and 1837 which may help sort or rule things out for you.

Robert Smith & Elizabeth Kent married 25/5/1807 Bungay HT, Suffolk

Robert Smith & Charlotte Reeve 7/3/1838 Bungay HT, Suffolk

Susan Smith & Jonathan Newson 22/11/1803 Bungay St Mary, Suffolk

Susan Smith & John Baxter 1/10/1817 East Dereham

There are several Robert Smith's marrying Susan & Susannah's in different parts of Norfolk. Might I suggest that the Robert & Susannah in the census' may be uncle/aunt of Frederick and not Father/Mother.....

OR AM I NOT QUITE GRASPING WHAT IT IS YOU ARE TRYING TO DO?

Dee

Nudging this up in the hope of finding more info regarding Susannah and Robert re their marriage and a possible Sarah Smith

Nudging this up in the hope of finding more info regarding Susannah and Robert re their marriage and a possible Sarah Smith

Nudging this up in the hope of finding more info regarding Susannah and Robert re their marriage and a possible Sarah Smith