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Frederic's first wife was Elizabeth Rigby

"What about this one....there is a Sarah???? right age to have Frederick in 1800. Great Ellingham is only about 10 miles from East Dereham. Sarah Smith could have been Frederick's grandmother????

name: Susanna Smith
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 23 Jan 1780
baptism/christening place: GREAT ELLINGHAM,NORFOLK,ENGLAND
father's name: John Smith
mother's name: Sarah
indexing project (batch) number: P01171-1
system origin: England-ODM
source film number: 0994074 IT 19"

Looks very nice Dee!

I don't know where i have posted it, or even if i did at all, but there is a Susannah Smith, daughter of Bartholomew Smith and Mary (nee Trollop), East Dereham 1781. Siblings Ann, Mary, John and John

I was unable to find out anything more for Samuel Leake, East Dereham 1779

OK, sorry, but I have to get to bed, early start.
Thankyou for your wonderful help and interesting ideas. I'm enjoying what I thought was going to be boundless dead ends.
Nite :-D

For reference (save searching the posts), can you put the marriage dates up again for Frederick and any other details on the certificates please.

sorry Wendy, I forgot you are in Austrailia, it is mid afternoon in England. Sleep well

Have a few more things you need to look at:

Susan/Susannah Baxter(Smith?) was with son Samuel Baxter (Samuel Leake Smith?) on the 1861 census at Tasburgh - as previously mentioned.

I cannot find Susan/Susannah Baxter in 1871 so looked for a death. Tasburgh is in the registration district of Depwade.

There is a death of Susan Baxter mar 1/4 1865 Depwade Vol 4b P184. This certificate would possibly give her birth but definately her age and who registered her death.

The buriel:
name: Susan Baxter
gender: Female
burial date: 16 Feb 1865
burial place: Tasburgh, Norfolk, England
age: 87
birth date: 1778
indexing project (batch) number: B02803-9
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1526688

OK - the birth date is slightly out, but they are not always accurate.
Might be worth ordering this certificate

Whilst looking at this buriel, I may have found another child of Susan & John Baxter:

name: Susanna Baxter
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 25 Aug 1822
baptism/christening place: Longham, Norfolk, England
father's name: John Baxter
mother's name: Susanna Baxter
indexing project (batch) number: I02256-1
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1278883

Longham is about 3 miles from East Dereham - there is also a record as:-

name: Susanna Judith Baxter
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 07 Sep 1818
baptism/christening place: Longham, Norfolk, England
father's name: John Baxter
mother's name: Susanna Baxter
indexing project (batch) number: I02257-1
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1278919

This is the buriel of Susanna Judith so this explains why they named a 2nd daughter the same in the baptism in 1822

name: Susanna Judith Baxter
gender: Female
burial date: 21 Oct 1818
burial place: Longham, Norfolk, England
father's name: John Baxter
mother's name: Susanna Baxter
indexing project (batch) number: I02257-1
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1278919

(this is a child between Samuel (Leake Smith) Baxter in 1816 and Elijah Baxter in 1819 but after Susan & John marriage in 1817.)


now, going back to Sarah Smith, we have a record of a Robert Smith birth in Whitwell 1777 (susannah's brother? maybe). Whitwell is in the registration district of Aylsham. There are several deaths for a Sarah Smith in Aysham pre 1841 (can't find Sarah in 1841) and one in Norwich (see the last one I list as it may be relevant.
Death: Sarah Smith Mar 1/4 1839 Aylsham Vol 13 page 1
Death: Sarah Elizabeth Smith Mar 1/4 1840 Aylsham Vol 13 Page 2
Death: Sarah Smith Mar 1/4 1841 Aylsham Vol13 Page 2
then
Sarah SUSANNA Smith Mar 1/4 1841 Norwich Vol 13 P185 - could Susannah have taken her mother's middle name?

Here is George in 1851, married with a daughter Sarah Ann (after grandmother again?) in Stepney, Middlesex


Name: George Baxter
Age: 32
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1819
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Emma Baxter
Gender: M (Male)
Where born: Dereham, Norfolk, England

Civil parish: St Paul Shadwell
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability:

View image

Registration district: Stepney
Sub-registration district: Shadwell
ED, institution, or vessel: 2c
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 44
Piece: 1550
Folio: 211
Page Number: 12
Household Members:
Name Age
George Baxter 32
Emma Baxter 29
Emma Baxter 8
James Baxter 6
Henry Baxter 4
Sarah Ann Baxter 18 Mo

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Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 1550; Folio: 211; Page: 12; GSU roll: 174780.


Could this be their marriage:
Name: George Baxter
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1841
Registration district: Lambeth
Inferred County: London
Volume Number: 4
Page Number: 221

George & family in 1861
Name: George Baxter
Age: 42
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1819
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Emma Baxter
Gender: Male
Where born: Market Dareham, Norfolk, England

Civil parish: Southwark St Saviour
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

View image

Registration district: St Saviour Southwark
Sub-registration district: St Saviour
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 15
Piece: 315
Folio: 95
Page Number: 3
Household Members:
Name Age
George Baxter 42
Emma Baxter 40
James Baxter 16
Henry Baxter 14
Sarah A Baxter 12
Mary Baxter 9
Frances E Baxter 1

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Source Citation: Class: RG 9; Piece: 315; Folio: 95; Page: 3; GSU roll: 542613.

Now we have a problem, as I have just found this, so the George/Emma family may not be correct, This matches the birth on the 1841 census
1861
Name: George Baxter
Age: 39
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1822
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Male
Where born: East Dereham, Norfolk, England

Civil parish: East Dereham
Town: East Dereham
County/Island: Norfolk
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

View image

Registration district: Mitford
Sub-registration district: East Dereham
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 165
Piece: 1242
Folio: 17
Page Number: 29
Household Members:
Name Age
Edward Jessup 55
Elizabeth Jessup 64
Mary Ann Mayes 7
Abel Eglen 56
George Baxter 39
Henry Banyard 38
James Thompson 45

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Source Citation: Class: RG 9; Piece: 1242; Folio: 17; Page: 29; GSU roll: 542782.


1871
Name: George Baxter
Age: 48
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1823
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary Ann Baxter
Gender: Male
Where born: East Dereham, Norfolk, England
Civil parish: East Dereham
County/Island: Norfolk
Country: England
Registration district: Mitford
Sub-registration district: East Dereham
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Household schedule number: 101
Piece: 1846
Folio: 81
Page Number: 18
Household Members:
Name Age
George Baxter 48
Mary Ann Baxter 28

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Source Citation: Class: RG10; Piece: 1846; Folio: 81; Page: 18; GSU roll: 838811.

This looks like Samuel and hannah's daughter's baptism

name: Sarah Baxter
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 15 Jul 1849
baptism/christening place: Tasburgh, Norfolk, England
father's name: Samuel Baxter
mother's name: Hannah
indexing project (batch) number: C02164-4
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1526657

But there is this one too:
name: Samuel Baxter
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 24 Sep 1851
baptism/christening place: Tasburgh, Norfolk, England
father's name: Samuel Baxter
mother's name: Hannah
indexing project (batch) number: C01822-8
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1526659


AND the Mary mentioned in 1861 census
name: Mary Ann Baxter
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 08 Jul 1855
baptism/christening place: Tasburgh, Norfolk, England
father's name: Samuel Baxter
mother's name: Hannah
indexing project (batch) number: C01720-3
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1526671

Their son (Alfred B in 1861)
name: Alfred Benjamin Baxter
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 15 Nov 1857
baptism/christening place: Tasburgh Parish, Norfolk County, England
father's name: Samuel Baxter
mother's name: Hannah
indexing project (batch) number: C02009-5
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1526672

Another child not mentioned in 1861 so possibly had died by then
name: Elizabeth Baxter
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 20 Dec 1859
baptism/christening place: Tasburgh Parish, Norfolk, England
father's name: Samuel Baxter
mother's name: Hannah Baxter
indexing project (batch) number: C03287-4
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1526685

Their son Samuel (mentioned in 1861)
name: Samuel Baxter
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 24 Sep 1851
baptism/christening place: Tasburgh, Norfolk, England
father's name: Samuel Baxter
mother's name: Hannah Baxter
indexing project (batch) number: I07519-4
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1657204

OH, think I may have a problem, there is another Samuel Baxter in Tasburgh. Take a look at these (yet another Susannah!)

name: Samuel Baxter
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 02 Mar 1834
baptism/christening place: Tasburgh, Norfolk, England
father's name: Samuel Baxter
mother's name: Susannah Baxter
indexing project (batch) number: I07519-4
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1657204

name: John Baxter
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 02 Mar 1834
baptism/christening place: Tasburgh, Norfolk, England
father's name: Samuel Baxter
mother's name: Susannah Baxter
indexing project (batch) number: I07519-4
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1657204

Could they have named their son John after John Baxter (our Susannah's husband?)


Another one?
name: Elijah Baxter
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 02 Mar 1834
baptism/christening place: Tasburgh, Norfolk, England
father's name: Samuel Baxter
mother's name: Susannah Baxter
indexing project (batch) number: I07519-4
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1657204

and another, (think the census' I mentioned earlier may be for this family???) Looks like they were all baptised on the same day!
name: George Baxter
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 02 Mar 1834
baptism/christening place: Tasburgh, Norfolk, England
father's name: Samuel Baxter
mother's name: Susannah Baxter
indexing project (batch) number: I07519-4
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1657204

Going back to Samuel & hannah, here are some more baptisms
name: Sarah Baxter
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 15 Jul 1849
baptism/christening place: Tasburgh, Norfolk, England
father's name: Samuel Baxter
mother's name: Hannah Baxter
indexing project (batch) number: I07519-4
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1657204

ame: George William Baxter
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 31 Jul 1853
baptism/christening place: Tasburgh, Norfolk, England
father's name: Samuel Baxter
mother's name: Hannah Baxter
indexing project (batch) number: I07519-4
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1657204

name: Mary Ann Baxter
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 08 Jul 1855
baptism/christening place: Tasburgh, Norfolk, England
father's name: Samuel Baxter
mother's name: Hannah Baxter
indexing project (batch) number: I07519-4
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1657204

name: Alfred Benjamin Baxter
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 15 Nov 1857
baptism/christening place: Tasburgh, Norfolk, England
father's name: Samuel Baxter
mother's name: Hannah Baxter
indexing project (batch) number: I07519-4
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1657204

Wow, so much research, but I am so sorry, I am really confused.
I have just reread the posts, and I am trying to work out how we got to the Baxters.
Because I have focused on Smith, Leake and The 2 witness', the Baxter name hasn't registered with me.

Let me go over the facts that I have for refreshing our heads...

Frederic Leake Smith was base born to Susannah Smith, in prive, 13th June 1800, East Dereham. Baptised 13 July 1800. I viewed the actual parish record image.
Frederic did not use the name Leake in the 1841, 1851 and 1861 census copies that I have.
His address in 1841 was Ely Place, 1851 2 Ely Place. 1861 3 Digby St.
Frederic married Elizabeth Rigby, Saint Dunstan and All Saints, Stepney, London, 21/08/1820, and had 3 sons. Witnesses' Thomas and Sarah Rigby.
Frederic married Elizabeth Brees/Breeze in 17/03/1838, Saint Matthew, Bethnal Green, London, England. Witnesses Sarah Smith and Robert Chambers
Frederic's death is not confirmed, but C1871

Sarah and Robert Smith.....
1851 12 Queen St, both aged 73, Sawyer Hulston Suffolk and St Andrews Suffolk
1861 32 Ely (St or Place?) 84 and 83, Sawyer, Both from Bungay Norfolk




Another census record, 1841, Ashford st Shoreditch ...
Susannah Smith aged 65. Looks like a poorhouse/workhouse, and job desc Tnd? Jnd? Not of the county.

I think there are too many Baxter variants to concentrate on, but I am very interested in the Robert and Susannah Smith possible siblings with Sarah as the mother.
This is going to be the tricky part, as I only have the basic resources to search, to find the mother of Robert Smith, married to a Susannah, living in the addresses I listed, then try and connect the family that way.

Sorry Wendy, you know how it is, one piece of info leads to another. This is how I brought Baxter into it:

I found the marriage of a Susan Smith to a John Baxter 1/10/1817 East Dereham. and I carried on from there. however, as Ihave gone along, I may have slipped up a little, so need to go over my notes again........

I have just found a burial which may be of interest and which puts all my Baxter research in the dustbin!

name: Susanna Smith
gender: Female
burial date: 02 Jun 1820
burial place: East Dereham, Norfolk, England
mother's name: Suzanna
indexing project (batch) number: I07542-7
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1951413

There is no age here but it could be Frederick's mother (couldn't find her in 1841) and he may have moved to London after her death.

I cannot find a baptism in East Dereham for Susannah, but I found these:

There was a baptism of Susanna Smith 25/1/1780 Gt Ellingham to a John Smith & Sarah (frederick's grandmother and witness perhaps?)

Then I found a baptism of Robert Smith 24/11/1777 at Whitwell to a John Smith & a Sarah (this matches your Robert and Susannah in Ely St 1841) - Susannah's brother, Frederick's Uncle. However, Whitwell is about 12 miles from Great Ellingham. But Greath Ellingham is about 10 miles from East Dereham

I have to go now, will take another look tomorrow.
REgards
Dee

Oh please don't apologise...and yes I do know how it is!!! :-D
OK, I understand the Baxter bit now, and certainly worth keeping for reference.
I might trawl through the Norfolk parish images again.

I really do think that you're on to something with the family possibly being like this......

Robert and Susannah Smith siblings
Mother Sarah
Robert Marries another Susannah

Scenario.... Susannah dies and Sarah cares for Frederic. She moves/lives near Frederic with son Robert and his wife Susannah.

NB - Elizabeth Rigby (1st wife) came from the London area
Elizabeth Breeze (2nd wife) was born in Bethnal Green. Her father Thomas came from Bacton Norfolk, and her mother Elizabeth DuLieu came from Bethnal Green.

Just recapping some census information gathered earlier in the thread..

1861 census

32 Ely (St, or Place) Shoreditch
Robert Smith 84 Bungay Norfolk Sawyer
Susannah Smith 83 Norfolk Bungay

Nextdoor/same address
Joseph Rowe 48 Dock Labourer (Brother of Susannah from Wisbech))
Mary Rowe 40
James 9
Susannah 9
All from Wisbech

Nextdoor/same address
Josiah Smith 35 Cabinet Carver Shoreditch (Son of Robt and Susannah)
Susannah 34 Milliner Wisbech
Josiah 10
Joseph 8
Susannah 3
All from Shoreditch
Mary Rowe (MIL) 69 Shoreditch ?? (maybe should be Wisbech?)



I also found a little connection with a Robert and Susannah Smith, siblings
Robert christened 10 Nov 1782
Susannah Christened 14 Dec 1777
South Elmham - St. James, Suffolk
Parents Robert and Sarah Smith

Wendy
Re: baptisms of Robert & Susannah at South Elmham, Suffolk - Parents Robert & Sarah.
Although names and dates look good, I would have thought the 1841 census would show them born Suffolk, not Norfolk. Have you tried finding these two in Suffolk in 1841, 1851 etc etc

I really think that you need to get some info from the parish records. Have you tried contacting the Norfolk Records Office Archives? Sometimes they are helpful, but may sometimes charge to do look-ups but you have some of the details you need so it might be worth asking them if they would take a look at the records.

Start with East Dereham and Fredericks baptism. It may give you information like - Was Susannah from that parish, if not, what parish she was from? Ask her to look for a baptism of a Susannah in 1780 and see if that comes up with any info on her parents identification or if there were any other children to the same parents.

What about that Buriel in East Dereham for a Susannah Smith in 1820? How old was she, was she married, any reference to relatives on the record?

Alternatively, you could check that baptism of a Susannah in Great Ellingham, what parents? Of that parish? etc

I don't think you are going to link Frederick with Robert and Susannah until you find more info on his mother. Frederick was born 1800 but how do we know how old his mother was? where did we get the 1780 year of birth from?

Then there is Bungay records - what info is there for a baptism for Robert?

The Norfolk Family history society may also be able to help you.
http://www.norfolkfhs.org.uk/

might be worth you dropping an email to them and explaining that you are in Australia so it is impossible for you to go to the Norfolk archives in Norwich to view the records.

Good Luck
Dee

Thanks Dee.
I searched the East Dereham images 20 years before and after Frederic's birth. Absolutely nothing except for a few more base born babes to a Susannah Smith, and the baptism of a Samuel Leake.
There was however several children, including a Susannah born to Bartholomew and Mary Smith, recorded at East Dereham, but at that time I wasn't looking for her family, but searching for a suitable Leake.
I will go back and search again for Susannah's baptism and death.
The reason I put Robert and Susannah from Suffolk up was because I did a search based on Robert's place of birth in the census...Bungay.
My resources are limited to what I can find for free, and using LSD, searched all the Robert Smiths, mother Sarah, Bungay.
I then did the same for Susannah, and found the match. Of course, I have no idea the distance between the parish's etc, and noted it in case. :-)

The parish record image ...
Frederic Leake base born son of Susannah Smith baptised in prive 13 June 1800

:-D

Found some results...just into the last 8 yrs..brb

East Dereham from 1750 - 1785
1767 Susanna - William and Ann Smith
1781 Susanna - Bart. and Mary (Trollop) Smith

That is all the Susanna's there are.

However, an interesting one that may be worth looking into.....
Sarah - 3rd daughter of George and Sarah Smith. Born May 26 1772.
*There are no other records of their daughters born in East Dereham between 1750 and 1772*
George Smith born Feb 1770
George Smith born 23 June 1764 Possibly died
Worth trying to find this couple and see where they were married to find where the other 2 daughters were born.

3.30am, so off to bed. Will look into any death records asap.

;-) :-P

Hi Wendy, have just had a glance at you messages!

The other day you said - "Another census record, 1841, Ashford st Shoreditch ...
Susannah Smith aged 65. Looks like a poorhouse/workhouse, and job desc Tnd? Jnd? Not of the county. "

Her 'job' as such is 'IND' which is short for 'Independent'. Probably quite able bodied.

Good luck with the rest of your research.

Marcus

Thankyou Marcus, useful info!