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Ok....found this - Looks like Robert may be Susannah's brother if this is him, which means Robert is Frederick's Uncle. Different parish again, but possible as the age is right - What do you think?


Name: Robert Smith
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 24 Nov 1777
baptism/christening place: Whitwell, Norfolk, England
father's name: John Smith
mother's name: Sarah
indexing project (batch) number: I0

Hi Wendy

Sorry if the info provided does not help with your research into your relative Frederick or the Ely Place couple Robert and Susannah Smith but.....

I'm Confused - if they were married c1800 or before would Sarah and/or Frederic not have had their father shown - rather than in Sarah's case shown as 'No Father's Name given' and isn't Frederic Leake Smith shown without a father's name?

Just to clarify as I had the above fact in mind: I used a marriage search criteria of a Robert Smith to a Susannah (no surname) from 1800 to 1871 (hence the wide range referred to on my earlier post) - because on the Census records they are both shown as Smith - perhaps indicating a marriage prior to the information given on census returns (but not always as I know from my family). The earliest Robert Smith marriage to show on 'Search GRO' taking place in London was Robert Fish Smith shown above. I did not limit my search to London but to England and selected the London ones - and a Norfolk one for you - as being most likely to be the Ely Place Smiths. I also searched by Susannah Smith to a Robert Smith - there were 2 possibles - Lancashire and Yorkshire, which I did not include.

So, are you now asserting they married before C1800? ie between or quickly after potentially Sarah Smith's birth (Feb 1799) Shoreditch and Frederick's birth (1800) Norfolk? So making the 'track' of Susannah as follows - Pregnant in Norfolk, off to Shoreditch, give birth to Sarah, return to Norfolk get pregnant again, have Frederick, get married to Robert (born in Norfolk) and then at some point between that and the 1841 Census Susannah, Robert, Frederick and possibly Sarah (if she is Frederick's sister/half sister) go back to London?

Also, just in case you wonder why I included the unrequested and not so helpful death record - it would show who registered the death - perhaps a son!! A long shot I know but as that was the ONLY death of a Robert Smith born c1778 using search criteria Robert Smith 1778 +/- 5 years, deaths registered from 1871 to 1910 in both London and Middlesex - I say only with the exception of one in Meracaibo which I decided couldn't be the one. If, just possibly if, the person who registered the death was called Frederick there would be your proof, or the address given of the informant might lead to other lines of enquiry.

MY GOODNESS - I was just going to look at the details you had provided on "Another angle is that Susannah moved to Middlesex/Essex with her babe/s and married after" to ask why you had Essex in for Susannah, as I cannot recall seeing Essex referred to before - and have just noticed that you are researching 'Fish' in Essex - well I think that there is a very strange coincidence in that and the fact that I turned up a Robert Fish Smith marrying a Susannah!

Still can't possibly be your Robert and Susannah as far too late to be marrying in 1837!

If you had been able to give me the name of the other witness on Frederick's Marriage Cert/s (or even other details if you have the cert) I was going to do a search on the other name, check the Census records to see if there was another connection that might lead to a confirmation (names/addresses) - or otherwise - of any family relationships between the individuals named in your threads.

Janet

Wow Janet, fantastic research.
Firstly, I said that to ELIMINATE Robert and Susannah (from Ely Place), we need an 1800 or earlier marriage. (Because then it would have been legitimate and Robert would have been stated as his father.)
Your proposal regarding Sarah as Susannah's mother is one I didn't think of, and an excellent angle to work off.
Witts to the Smith / Brees marriage are
Sarah Smith
Robert Chambers.

The Fish connection doesn't occur until Frederic's grandaughter Eliza married Albert, my great grand parents :)

Will check back in a little later...dinner then a spot of telly
:-D

Not sure if this may be the same parents as John & sarah are popular names, but may be worth noting?

name: James Smith
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 08 Nov 1778
baptism/christening place: St. Martin-at-Palace Church, Norwich, Norfolk, England
father's name: John Smith
mother's name: Sarah
indexing project (batch) number: I02576-2
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1526323


name: Mary Smith
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 02 Aug 1778
baptism/christening place: Norwich, Norfolk, England
father's name: John Smith
mother's name: Sarah Smith
indexing project (batch) number: I05568-4
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1526853


name: Sarah Smith
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 18 May 1777
baptism/christening place: St. Martin-at-Palace Church, Norwich, Norfolk, England
father's name: John Smith
mother's name: Sarah
indexing project (batch) number: I02576-2
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1526323


name: Eliz Smith
gender: Female
birth date: 14 May 1777
birthplace: Earsham, Alburgh, Norfolk, England
father's name: John Smith
mother's name: Sarah Smith
indexing project (batch) number: I07481-5
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1526814


name: Jonathan Smith
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 04 Dec 1778
baptism/christening place: Burnham-Norton, Norfolk, England
father's name: John Smith
mother's name: Sarah
indexing project (batch) number: I03901-2
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1565274


name: Edwd Smith
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 12 Mar 1777
baptism/christening place: Methwold, Norfolk, England
father's name: Jno Smith
mother's name: Sarah
indexing project (batch) number: I07495-1
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 2186649


name: Sarah Smith
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 30 May 1778
baptism/christening place: Methwold, Norfolk, England
father's name: John Smith
mother's name: Sarah
indexing project (batch) number: I07495-1
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 2186649


name: Sar Smith
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 17 Nov 1776
baptism/christening place: SAINT MARTIN AT PALACE,NORWICH,NORFOLK,ENGLAND
father's name: Jn. Smith
mother's name: Sar
indexing project (batch) number: C04790-1
system origin: England-ODM
source film number: 894701



name: Benjamin Smith
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 20 Aug 1815
baptism/christening place: SUFFOLK COUNTY BTS, SUFFOLK, ENGLAND
birthplace: HOPTON
death date: 10 Sep 1815
father's name: John Smith
mother's name: Sarah
indexing project (batch) number: C13160-1
system origin: England-ODM
source film number: 952321

Whitwell and Great Ellingham are only about 10 miles apart, with East Dereham between them.
Robert Smith bapt 24/11/1777 Whitwell Father John Mother Sarah
Susanna Smith bapt 23/1/1780 Great Ellingham Father John Mother Sarah
Susanna right age to have had Frederick
Robert right age as 1841 census suggests

How exciting!
I'll be back soon to digest the info.

Given that Robert gives his place of birth as Bungay, Bungay is about 10 miles from Great Yarmouth and Loddon, so the two marriage I mentioned previously are possibly them, however, I would lean towards the Great Yarmouth oneas her name is Susannah (Wince) and not Susan as is the Loddon one.

This is the way I am thinking......
Robert born in Whitwell 1777, Susanna in Gt Ellingham 1780, perhaps robert met "his" Susannah whilst working in Bungay and the pair married in Great yarmouth. All speculation. But worth the thought.

Back...
Wow, OK, I need to sort this out in my mind so there is some order and direction.
It is a possibility that Robert Smith (Ely Pl) had a sister called Susannah, who was the mother of Frederic.
Their Mother was Sarah Smith.
Where is Susannah?
She died? Find her death
She married? Find her marriage.
Alive and single? Census?
Confirm Sarah Smith was the mother and the witness..how? "IF" this info is correct, then we know Sarah was alive in 1820. "IF" Susannah is her daughter, born C1780, then Sarah could have been born C1760ish, soooo...would she still be alive to find in the 1841 census?? Not likely, but needs to be eliminated. Next would be a death record.
Can we bring the Leake name into it somehow with Sarah?
I don't know if you read the post I made about 1 likely candidate in Samuel Leake from East Dereham.

PS, also if you weren't aware, I live in Australia, so have absolutely no idea about hamlets/towns/parishes and their distances, so th einfo is a great help :-D

OK, so what about this possibility....
There is a marriage of a Susan Smith to a john Baxter 1/10/1817 East Dereham.
1841: Susan Baxter B1781 age 60 Char woman Head of household with
Samuel Baxter 25 (1816) Butcher
Elijah Baxter 22 Ag Lab
George Baxter 20 Ag Lab
at Tasburgh, Norfolk (5miles from Gt Ellingham and 5 miles from Bungay)

Samuel's age ties in with the Susan/John Baxter marriage in 1817
You mention a Samuel Leake - could have had him before the marriage?
John not with them in 1841

ps
East Dereham is again about 10 miles from Tasburgh - possible?

Can't find Susan in 1851 as Samuel is head of the household now. However, I have found this Death:-


Name: Susannah Baxter
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1845
Registration district: Bethnal Green
Inferred County: London
Volume: 2
Page: 6 (click to see others on page)

Could this be a coincidence with your other links to Bethnal Green?

The Leake connection is Frederic's middle name. Frederic Leake Smith.
Some debate over wether it is his father's name, Susannah's maiden name, Susannah's mother's maiden name etc .

previous death not her (maybe Robert's susannah?)

1861
Name: Samuel Baxter
Age: 47
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1814
Relation: Head
Mother's name: Susanah Baxter
Gender: Male
Where born: Tasburgh, Norfolk, England

Civil parish: Tasburgh
County/Island: Norfolk
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

View image

Registration district: Depwade
Sub-registration district: Stratton
ED, institution, or vessel: 12
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 55
Piece: 1233
Folio: 158
Page Number: 9
Household Members:
Name Age
Samuel Baxter 47
Sarah Baxter 11
Samuel Baxter 9
George Wm Baxter 7
Mary Baxter 5
Alfred B Baxter 3
Susanah Baxter 84
Mary Ann Nuby 47Name: Samuel Baxter
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1818
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1866
Age at Death: 48
Registration district: Poplar
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1c
Page: 837 (click to see others on page)

Notice, Susan has become Susannah again and that Samuel has named his daughter Sarah (perhaps after his grandmother?)

Just had a thought...can we find a daughter of Sarah Smith marrying a Robert Chambers?
Or....Sarah Chambers that Married a Smith, with a brother called Robert?
I have Robert and Susannah Smith living at 12 Queen st 1851 census

For information:
1851
Name: Samuel Baxter
Age: 37
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1814
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Hannah Baxter
Gender: M (Male)
Where born: Tasburgh, Norfolk, England

Civil parish: Tasburgh
Ecclesiastical parish: Depwade
County/Island: Norfolk
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability:

View image

Registration district: Depwade
Sub-registration district: Harleston
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 8
Piece: 1821
Folio: 639
Page Number: 3
Household Members:
Name Age
Samuel Baxter 37
Hannah Baxter 24
Sarah Baxter 1

View
Original
Record

View original image

Wendy

what year are we looking for a sarah/robert marriage please?

Found this baptism of a possible daughter - is this what you are looking for?

name: Sarah Chambers
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 18 Sep 1817
baptism/christening place: Elsing, Norfolk, England
father's name: Robert Chambers
mother's name: Sarah
indexing project (batch) number: I02274-3
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1278797


Am I missing something? Where does Chambers come into the family?

Robert Chambers was the 2nd witness at Frederic's first marriage.

Oh, I see. He could have been a friend.
I have searchedmy Norfolk marriages CD (1801-1837) and can confirm that there were no marriages between either a Sarah Smith & Robert Chambers or Robert Smith & Sarah Chambers - at least not in Norfolk! Perhaps Robert Chambers was related to Frederick's wife? - another possiblility.