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Wendy, youre right its not Ely St on the 1851 I posted, dont know what I was looking at!

I think its 12 Green St

Hello Wendy

I might have something on locations of Ely Place and Queen Street for you - there are a number of links but hopefully you can get a idea of where they were:

Here are the details of location for 8 Ely Place (just so that you have the location of Ely Place in Bethnal Green) in the Parish of St Simon Zelotes from the 1851 Census:

RG number: HO107 Piece: 1540 Folio: 90 Page: 13 Sub District: The Green Enumeration District: 3 Ecclesiastical Parish: Saint Simon Zelotes Municipal Borough: Tower Hamlets Address: 8, Ely Place, Bethnal Green, Tower Hamlets County: Middlesex

Here are the details of location for 12 Queen Street ( in the Parish of St Thomas) from the 1851 Census:

RG number: HO107 Piece: 1539 Folio: 355 Page: 21 Sub District: Hackney Road Enumeration District: 16 Ecclesiastical Parish: Saint Thomas Municipal Borough: Tower Hamlets Address: 12, Queen Street, Bethnal Green, Tower Hamlets County: Middlesex

HERE IS A LINK: http://www.dickens-and-london.com/BGChurches.htm
giving locations of St Simon Zelotes shown as No 11 and in the vicinity of Globe Road and Roman Road AND St Thomas shown as No 12 and in the vicinity of Hackney Road and Kingsland Road. - all these roads still exist and can be googled.

On this website :
http://www.census1891.com/streets-e.htm Ely Place is shown on Digby Street - see the next link (there is a map down the page)

http://www.londontown.com/LondonStreets/digby_street_48f.html/

Queen Street not so easy to find as it isn't there any more! However, see this link
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=22748
and at the end of the 2nd paragraph it refers to John Poole, who built behind the chapel in Chapel, King, Queen, and Charles (later Hassard) streets. (fn. 57) You can see the chapel on the map near Hackney Road, so it gives you an idea of where the street was.

Suggest you try mapquest driving directions and see what it gives if you go from Digby Street to Hassard Street - and here is another link!

http://www.londontown.com/LondonStreets/hassard_street_00c.html/

So they are not just around the corner to each other - but they are both in Bethnal Green

Hope it helps

Janet

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
Name: Robert Joseph Smith
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1827
Baptism Date: 15 Oct 1827
Father's Name: Robert Smith <<Sawyer
Mother's name: Susan Smith
Parish or Poor Law Union: Shoreditch St Leonard
Borough: Hackney
Register Type: Bishop's Transcript

Address: Red Lion Street

The reason I am perseuing this Robert and Susannah Smith is because of a number of coincidences..
1. They came from Norfolk
2. Their ages fit
3. They lived on Ely Place
$. Their name is Smith
My ancestor Frederic Leake Smith (never used the name Leake in any cencus') was base born to a Susannah Smith in East Dereham 1800.
I already have a topic regarding him http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.page/board/ancestors/ancestors%20of%20frederick/thread/1217401?page=2
I just think that there are too many coincidences with Frederick and his family living on the same street at the same time as Robert and Susannah. This is why I am trying to pinpoint everyone's location at a given time, and to find more information on this couple.
Frederick had a witness at his marriage called Sarah Smith. I am hoping I can find a Sarah connected to Robert and Susannah.
All of this may just be a coincidence, but I think it's worth looking more into before dismissing.
Thanks again.

Nudging this up in the hope of finding more info regarding Susannah and Robert re their marriage and a possible Sarah Smith

Nudging this up in the hope of finding more info regarding Susannah and Robert re their marriage and a possible Sarah Smith

Nudging this up in the hope of finding more info regarding Susannah and Robert re their marriage and a possible Sarah Smith

Wendy, presumably this is Frederick in 1841?

1841
Name: Frederick Smith
Age: 40
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1801
Gender: Male
Where born: East Dereham, Norfolk, England

Civil parish: Bethnal Green
Hundred: Ossulstone (Tower Division)
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

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Registration district: Bethnal Green
Sub-registration district: Green
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 692
Book: 5
Folio: 39
Page Number: 13
Household Members:
Name Age
Frederick Smith 40
Elizabeth Smith 25
William Smith 20
Alfred Smith 13
Henry Smith 6 Mo

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Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 692; Book: 5; Civil Parish: Bethnal Green; County: Middlesex; Enumeration District: 12; Folio: 39; Page: 13; Line: 4; GSU roll: 438808.




AND in 1851
Name: Fredrick Smith
Age: 50
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1801
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Elizabeth Smith
Gender: M (Male)
Where born: East Dosham, Norfolk, England

Civil parish: Bethnal Green
Ecclesiastical parish: St Simon Zelotes
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability:

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Registration district: Bethnal Green
Sub-registration district: Green
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 57
Piece: 1540
Folio: 91
Page Number: 15
Household Members:
Name Age
Fredrick Smith 50
Elizabeth Smith 33
Eliza Smith 14
Henry Smith 10
John Smith 8
David Smith 4
Emma Smith 1
William Smith 29

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Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 1540; Folio: 91; Page: 15; GSU roll: 174770.


Wendy

I am a little confused as to what it is you are trying to find out. Can you confirm the following...
You have a Frederick Smith B1800 whose mother is Susannah Smith of East Dereham . When Frederick married, the witness was a Sarah Smith.
Are you trying to find out who his father and mother were (we know of Susannah).
1 How do you know his mother is Susannah Smith? ie what documentation have you to prove this? a baptism would have a father (if not illigitamate)
2 Are you assuming that the Robert and Susannah from norfolk are the parents?

I am thinking that Frederick's mother may have been unmarried at the time of having Frederick and that Sarah may be an aunt.

I have listed the following marriages from between 1801 and 1837 which may help sort or rule things out for you.

Robert Smith & Elizabeth Kent married 25/5/1807 Bungay HT, Suffolk

Robert Smith & Charlotte Reeve 7/3/1838 Bungay HT, Suffolk

Susan Smith & Jonathan Newson 22/11/1803 Bungay St Mary, Suffolk

Susan Smith & John Baxter 1/10/1817 East Dereham

There are several Robert Smith's marrying Susan & Susannah's in different parts of Norfolk. Might I suggest that the Robert & Susannah in the census' may be uncle/aunt of Frederick and not Father/Mother.....

OR AM I NOT QUITE GRASPING WHAT IT IS YOU ARE TRYING TO DO?

Dee

I suspect Robert Smith really came from Harleston (not Hulston). This is the next village along from Bungay. He probably said Bungay for one of the censuses as it is better known.

Ely Place no longer exists in Shoreditch. But, Shoreditch is next to Bethnal Green, so it can't have been that far away. (Just realised that JannieAnnie has already explained that. In much more detail than I did).

TY Christina.
TY Dee.
Regrading Frederic, and to re clarify.
He was base born to Susannah Smith, East Dereham, 1800, baptised as Frederic Leake Smith.
He never ever used the name Leake in his life.
Now, we know his father was unknown, as was written on his first marriage certificate, and on his 2nd marriage, just Susannah's name.
I know it is going to be extremely hard to find his father, so have been trying to find out more about his mother, which we have discussed in a seperate thread. Because I have nothing 100% positive to work on, other than her name, I am having to eliminate Susannah's in order to try and find her.
While looking through the census', I discovered Sus. and Rob. Smith, from Norfolk, with the appropriate age, living on the same road/street as Frederic. Because the sons, and their children all lived relatively close to each other, even next door to each other, you can understand how I couldn't ignore the couple living so close by.
So in order to eliminate her as his mother, as relatives, or even related, I have to find out more about them.
Despite some ends not matching up, I still feel that they are connected.
So far no one can find the Sarah connection.

:-D

Ok. admittedly I haven't read all the thread.

Is there a previous family connection to the name Leake? it was quite common for a base born child to carry his father's surname as a middle name and wondered if this might apply?

Howdy.
It might be easier for you to take a look at a previous thread where we found Frederic's birth details, and the search for Leake.

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.page/board/ancestors/ancestors%20of%20frederick/thread/1217401?page=1

Unfortunately no one has been able to help with the Leake connection, so working back to Sarah Smith etc.

:-)

Can I just confirm - is this who you want information about ?


Sarah Smith
B 26 Feb 1799
St Leonard's, Shoreditch.
Mother Susannah
No father's name given.

And do you think that Susannah (mother of above) is the mother of Frederic Leake Smith b1800 in Norfolk? or have I missed something?

Hi Jannie. I really don't know who Susannah is, at first I looked around East Dereham, but could only find 1 suitable candidate in Susannah, daughter of Bartholomew and Mary (Trollop). I did find some more base babes to a Susannah Smith in the same parish. As more information came in regarding Frederic, I started to search for Sarah, who was a witness at his wedding. Because the name is so common, and with very little to go on except for Frederic and his marriages and children, I have used hunches and leads to eliminate people. Thankyou, that is a great lead to work on regarding Sarah.
At first I thought perhaps Susannah was from East Dereham, then worked on the theory that she may have come from Middlesex area and went to Norfolk to work, where she had Frederic, then returned.
Frederic was born July 1800, so quite possible Sarah was his older sister.
I still think Susannah and Robert may be a connection, and would really like to find their definite marriage record to either eliminate or confirm them. However, so far we can only find 2 sons, no Sarah...BUT it is also possible Frederic and maybe Sarah too were from an unrecognised union. Could Robert and Susannah have been married illegally? Then remarried? Then again, maybe it's just one of the huge coincidences that causes headaches LOL.
So all I have to go on is Frederic LEAKE Smith, Sarah Smith a witness, and the Smith names on Ely place at the same time. :-S

Hi Wendy

I got the Sarah Smith details above from information posted at 14:56 on 20/5/2010 on your 'frederick' thread :

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.page/board/ancestors/ancestors%20of%20frederick/thread/1217401?page=1

assuming you were still looking for a Sarah Smith.

1) Where was his (2nd) marriage - was it Bethnal Green in 1838?
2) Do you have the Cert or only information from the Cert?
3) Do you have the name of the other witness?

I am finding it difficult to 'track' Susannah - If she was born in Norfolk, had a child Sarah in Shoreditch in 1799, then back to Norfolk, pregnant again with Frederic, had him in Norfolk, in 1800 - back to London again before 1841 - then there is the birth of Robert Joseph Smith abt 1827 to a Robert & Susan Smith in London. It is difficult to connect whether they are the same people - as Smith is a VERY common name.

Do you have a connection of the Robert Joseph Smith to Frederick (Leake) Smith. Also where / when did his first marriage take place - was that a London marriage placing him and his possibly his mother (Susannah) in London?

You are looking for a marriage for Susannah and Robert - may be they were both Smiths and just didn't bother to marry?

I will look for some Robert/Susannah marriages for you in London - but it will probably be a wide range

Janet

Robert Smith to Susannah marriages:

Two of interest: Robert Smith to Susannah Oxer - Norfolk 1846

and

Smith ? 1860 - I did the search Robert Smith to Susannah Smith but the image is damaged (could be Susan)


Name:SMITH, Robert
County:London
Year of registration:1840
Quarter of registration:Jan-Feb-Mar
Volume no: [?]1
Page no: [?]20
Robert Smith married one of the following people

MACKEY, Ann
THOMAS, Hannah
WEBER, Susannah

JACOB, John
MARTIN, Joseph
PULSCHEN, Christopher


Name:SMITH, Robert
County:London
Year of registration:1841
Quarter of registration:Jan-Feb-Mar
Volume no: [?]1
Page no: [?]17
Robert Smith married one of the following people

GODDARD, Sarah
KEARLEY, Rebecca
RODWAY, Mary Ann
TURRELL, Susannah Elizabeth

HAWKINS, George
HINTON, Thomas Vincent
WARD, Edward



Name:SMITH, Robert
Registration district: [?]Kings Lynn
County:Norfolk
Year of registration:1843
Quarter of registration:Oct-Nov-Dec
Volume no: [?]13
Page no: [?]466
Robert Smith married one of the following people

BURTON, Susannah
KING, Matilda
LANGLEY, Lucy Bridget
WRIGHT, Mary Ann

BEETON, Edmund
WOODS, Henry

Robert Smith married Susannah Oxer [?]

Name:SMITH, Robert
Registration district: [?]Wayland
County:Norfolk
Year of registration:1846
Quarter of registration:Apr-May-Jun
Volume no: [?]13
Page no: [?]571
________________________________________

Name:OXER, Susannah
Registration district:Wayland
County:Norfolk
Year of registration:1846
Quarter of registration:Apr-May-Jun
Spouse's last name:Not available before 1912
Volume no:13
Page no:571


Name:SMITH, Robert Fish
Registration district: [?]Westminster St. Margaret
County:London
Year of registration:1837
Quarter of registration:Oct-Nov-Dec
Volume no: [?]1
Page no: [?]364
Robert Fish Smith married one of the following people

BURT, Ellen
PYSDEN, Susannah

BURT, William
SAUNDERS, Richard


Name:SMITH, Robert
Registration district: [?]Shoreditch
County:London
Year of registration:1848
Quarter of registration:Oct-Nov-Dec
Volume no: [?]2
Page no: [?]377

Robert Smith married one of the following people

DUMAS, Maria Louise
GRAHAM, Eliza
HAXELL, Ellen
WALKER, Susannah

BOWMAN, Charles
DEARLOVE, John
LEACH, John


Name:SMITH, Robert George
Registration district: [?]Poplar
County:London
Year of registration:1850
Quarter of registration:Apr-May-Jun
Volume no: [?]2
Page no: [?]361
Robert George Smith married one of the following people

KILSBY, Susannah Lindsey
PYLE, Isabella Margaret
SPEDDING, Margaret Isabella
WHITEHOUSE, Martha

POOR, John
HOWSON, John Dorlin
IRELAND, James


Name:SMITH, Robert
Registration district: [?]Newington
County:London
Year of registration:1852
Quarter of registration:Jan-Feb-Mar
Volume no: [?]1D
Page no: [?]189
MarriageFinder™: [?] Robert Smith married one of the following people

HARMES, Caroline
NEWTON, Susannah

BROWN, John


Name:SMITH, ?
Registration district: [?]?
County:
Year of registration:1860
Quarter of registration:Oct-Nov-Dec
Spouse's last nameNot available before 1912
Volume no: [?]?
Page no: [?]?

Image damaged but near the end it appears to show a name Susan (Smith) –not possible to make out the Volume etc but could be E London

Robert Smith Death (search criteria b 1778 +/- 5 years, registered from 1871 to 1910)

Name: SMITH, RobertRegistration district: [?] St. George Hanover Square County: LondonYear of registration: 1871Quarter of registration: Oct-Nov-Dec Age at death:90 Volume no: 1A Page no: 289

Great work Annie, but remember, Robert and Susannah were born C1778
I think the educated way to go is to see if Robert and Susannah were married C1800.
To eliminate this couple and Susannah herself, I think to find their marriage before or at the time of Frederic's birth.
Another angle is that Susannah moved to Middlesex/Essex with her babe/s and married after.
The death record looks very promising, though doesn't help much with what we are looking for.
:-)

Are these of interest to you?
Robert Smith & Susan Bullen married 27/2/1804 Loddon, Norfolk
Robert Smith & Susannah Wince 17/11/1805 Great Yarmouth, Norfolk
Robert Smith & Susan Nichols 11/10/1808 Upwell, Norfolk

Dee

Could this be your Susannah?

name: Susannah Smith
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 06 Nov 1790
baptism/christening place: East Dereham, Norwich, Norfolk, England
father's name: Johnson Smith
mother's name: Elizabeth
indexing project (batch) number: I03796-8
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1545212

Dee

OOOPPPS.... can't be - she would have been 10 when Frederick was born. Sorry


This one might be worth keeping a note of.....
name: Susannah Smith
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 10 Feb 1787
baptism/christening place: St. Nicholas', Yarmouth, Norfolk, England
birth date: 08 Jan 1787
birthplace: St. Nicholas, Great Yarmouth, Norfolk, England
father's name: Ambrose Smith
mother's name: Elizabeth
indexing project (batch) number: C16315-8
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1526328


Another one worth noting......
name: Susannah Smith
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 27 Jan 1781
baptism/christening place: Cawston, Norfolk, England
father's name: Henry Smith
mother's name: Christian Smith
indexing project (batch) number: I07397-7
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1657158


And this one......

name: Susanna Smith
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 05 Aug 1781
baptism/christening place: Norwich, Norfolk, England
father's name: Robert Smith
mother's name: Ann Smith
indexing project (batch) number: I05568-0
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1526853


What about this one....there is a Sarah???? right age to have Frederick in 1800. Great Ellingham is only about 10 miles from East Dereham. Sarah Smith could have been Frederick's grandmother????

name: Susanna Smith
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 23 Jan 1780
baptism/christening place: GREAT ELLINGHAM,NORFOLK,ENGLAND
father's name: John Smith
mother's name: Sarah
indexing project (batch) number: P01171-1
system origin: England-ODM
source film number: 0994074 IT 19

Dee