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There is a John Allan in Woolwich in 1881 again in barracks

1881 census - household transcription
Person: ALLAN, John
Address: "army Service Corps Barracks, St Marys Parish", Woolwich

ALLAN, John Married M 30 1851 Private A S Corps
Bethnal Green
Middlesex

1871 census - household transcription
Person: MCKNIGHT, Jane
Address: Barracks, Dorchester Dorset, Fordington, Dorchester

MCKNIGHT, Robert Head M 35 1836 Ireland
MCKNIGHT, Julia Wife F 33 1838 Ireland
MCKNIGHT, Jane Daughter F 0 1871 Dorset

I think Bessie Cole mother of Ada was a Martin. I am still looking for confirmation

Julia mother of Jane McKnight became a Martin.

This is interesting

a long census report with some extractions

1871
Address: Royal Marine Infirmary To Green Hill Schools ???, Francis St, Woolwich, Woolwich
MARTIN, Michael Soldier M 29 1842 Ireland (2nd husband of Julia)

I too worked very hard on the original post. And I found the Rook family in 1901........ so maybe not worth you keeping all the info?! But because you have deleted it others have now wasted their time and efforts in looking at the same info.

There is NEVER a need to delete findings that are from this time period, GR keeps the info and it doesn't clog up your memory on the PC.

Now back to the chase.............. was a marriage for James and Mary ever found??? Could Mary not be a "blood" relative to Gertrude??

The 1881 census for James, never found?? Could he have been in the Army?? If this is possible wouldn't FMP hold any info?


Dee x

On the 1891 for Ada I gave earlier there is an Elizabeth Martin visiting with them.

William Sibthorpe is the son of Isaac so Jane McKnight lived at number 6 1881 and in 1891 visited the parents of the person living at number 1 and her baby was baptised from number 1 the year before. Hope you follow that.


Next to trace Ada's connection

Jane mcKnight was visiting William Sibthorpe in 1891.

In 1881 she was living at 6 Rush Grove mother Julia Martin

In 1891 The Martins were not at number 6
but at
1891 census - Address: 1, Rush Grove Street, Woolwich

40 SIBTHORPE, Isaac Head Married M 57 1834 Potman At Public House
Epping
Essex
40 SIBTHORPE, Fanny Wife Married F 39 1852
Horndean
Hampshire
40 SIBTHORPE, Charles Son Single M 19 1872 Arsenal Labourer
Shorncliffe
Kent
40 SIBTHORPE, Ellena Daughter Single F 13 1878
India
40 BONNY, William Lodger Single M 38 1853 Cab Driver
Blackheath
Kent

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

41 CLARKE, James Head Married M 38 1853 Sergeant Royal Artillery
Brighton
Sussex
41 CLARKE, Eliza Wife Married F 28 1863
Rochester
Kent


They must be connected to Jane somehow.
Born all over the place
Shorncliffe suggests army origins though.

1881 census - household transcription
Person: MC KNIGHT, Jane
Address: 6, Rush Grove, Woolwich
MARTIN, Michael Head Married M 40 1841 General Labourer
Ireland
MARTIN, Julia Wife Married F 43 1838
Ireland
MC KNIGHT, Jane Step Daughter Single F 10 1871 Scholar
Dorchester
Dorset



Hmmm thinking

maybe Jane was not married as per 1891 census

Putting that into context

Gertrude Rutherford Allen born on 21 December 1888
John McKnight Birth Date:11 June 1889
John McKnight Baptism Date:1 Sep 1889
Gertrude Rutherford Allen Baptism Date:22 Sep 1889
Ada Jane Coleborn 20 Oct
Ada Jane Cole was baptised on 03 Nov 1889

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
Name: John Morris Mcknight
Record Type:Baptism
Birth Date:11 June 1889
Baptism Date:1 Sep 1889
Father's name:John Morris Mcknight
Mother's name:Jane Mcknight
Parish or Poor Law Union: Woolwich St Mary Magdalene
Borough:Greenwich


1891 Address: Acorn Villa, Little Heath, Charlton Next Woolwich, Charlton
SIBTHORPE, William Head Married M 22 1869 General Labourer
Portsmouth Hampshire
SIBTHORPE, Martha Wife Married F 22 1869 Woolwich Kent
MCKNIGHT, Jane Visitor Single F 20 1871 General Servant Domestic Dorchester
MCKNIGHT, John Son M 1 1890 St PancrasLondon

This may be irelevant but as you say it is strange that there were births for 3 babies at the same address in a short space od time.

1891 census - household transcription
Person: COLE, Ada J
Address: 79, Leyes Road, West Ham
COLE, Edwin Head Married M 26 1865 General Labourer
Birmingham
Warwickshire
COLE, Bessie Wife Married F 25 1866
St Keverne
Cornwall
COLE, Ada J Daughter Single F 1 1890
Woolwich
Kent
AMBROSE, John Lodger Single M 39 1852
Damerham
Wiltshire
Salisbury
MARTIN, Elizabeth Visitor Married F 66 1825
North Molton
Devonshire


Ada was baptised Oct 20 just 4 weeks after Gertrude was baptised.???

Rush Grove Street is a tiny street in an area where much of the housing was occupied by army personnel or those involved with the Arsenal. At the end of the street is a grad e 1 listed building (Residence of Commandant of Royal Artillery Barracks).It is possible that the Allan family were involved in the army and were maybe transient.

Have you tried this birth:-


Name: ALLEN, Gertrude
Registration District: Hendon
County: Middlesex
Year of Registration: 1888
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Mother's Maiden Name: Not available before 1911 Q3
Volume No: 3A
Page No: 197

Kath. x

Errr No.


I seem to remember we made progress but needed more info.


Threads should not be deleted as the info in it may be found by some else in a few years doing a search by google who may have the answers you need.

Hi LK, oh dear, yes I deleted my thread becuase I thought it is not worth to keep that are unsuccessful. I never thought about it.

Can we get deleted threads back? I am not sure about it.

But where is the previous thread. There was a lot of work on there and it ould show us what has already been searched for. There are more records on line and available. You may have better results if we can see it.

SylviaInCanada,

Astra is correct. It is only one Gertrude Rutherford/Allen. She was born on 21 December 1888 where her baptism record appears. My late grandmother told me that Gertrude's birthday was on 21 December. She was baptised on 22 Sep 1889 and she was fostered by James and Mary Rutherford on that date. So John and Margaret Allen were gone after James and Mary Rutherford took Gertrude.

I would hope Gertrude was born in Woolwich. But John and Margaret Allen lived at 1 Rush Grove Street for few months. I found some baptism records with same address. John McKnight was baptised on 01 Sep 1889 and Ada Cole was baptised on 03 Nov 1889. Both of them lived at 1 Rush Grove Street.

Look should be Rook where her family used Rook in 1901. Rook was James Rutherford's mother, Jane's maiden name.

LK, really, our trees connected, do you have Allen? Yes I had threaded it before to find Gertrude's birth certificate but it was unsuccessful. Now I am looking for her biological parents.

I am sure I have done work on this before. It seems very familiar. I have a funny feeling our trees connected but cannot work out where. Did you have another thread before?
LK

Steven


Baptisms usually occurred in the parish in which the child was born and the parents lived


Occasionally, the baby might be taken back to the parish where its mother had grown up.



So ..... I think you might be able to assume that Gertrude was born at
1 Rush Grove Street,
in the Parish of Woolwich, London.




However, I am very puzzled by the information that Astra posted:-

"She was baptised Gertrude Rutherford with parents as John (a labourer) and Margaret Allen

She appears on the 1891 (following your research) as Gertrude Rutherford with Parents James Rutherford a general labourer born Burgh Cumberland and M A born London as his wife and her moither

In 1901 she is Gertrude Look (on FMP) daughter of James a tinsmith born Carlisle Cumberland and Mary born Walworth

In 1911 she is Gertrude Rutherford with the Pearce family. "



What is the connection between all these people?

I'm almost tempted to say that you have 2 or 3 Gertrude Rutherford's mixed up just from looking at the above!


What is the actual proof that you have that Gertrude Rutherford Allen born December 1888 and baptized September 1889 is the same child as Gertrude Rutherford?

Or that either of these 2 is the same as Gertrude Look?




sylvia

Thank you all for your time.

Hi Astra, I have Gertrude’s marriage certificate. Her father was James Rutherford. Her witnesses were E. Pearce (my great great grandmother) and M. Basham (George’s sister). They were married in the Register Office at Woolwich.

Yes, that’s correct where you found Robert and Jane (Rook) Rutherford. They were James’ parents.

Who was Mary Luck/Lusk who was born in 1817?

I have Gertrude’s birth certificate whose parents Thomas and Emma Allen so it was not her. Because her biological parents were John and Margaret Allen.

Ginny, yes that’s them from Ancestry. So how do I find out where she was born. That's why I am asking for help. I have tried it for many years. She might never have a birth certificate. I have no idea where her biological parents’ marriage was.

Vera, yes I have tried with it and it is unsuccessful.

Dea, I have that her birth certificate. It was 04 Feb 1889 and her parents were Thomas and Emma Allen. So it was not my Gertrude.