Find Ancestors

You're most welcome of course, and good for Dea on that picture. And good show on finding Francis before his death.

Any more problem ancestors up your sleeve? ;)

I have posted the photo on Genes facebook page, if you would like a peep!

SO...

Bertha Greaves Pullman was born in June 1871 to

Sarah Jane Harrold 1840 and
Francis Greaves Pullan1838.
He was a Blacksmith.

Francis and Sarah married in Sept 1859

In 1851 Sarah was living at 96, Charles Street, Leeds, with

William Harrold 35 shoemaker
Ann? Harrold 33
Elizabeth 15 Flax dresser
SARAH JANE 10 scholar
John 6 scholar
Selina 4 scholar

When Sarah and Francis got married in 1859 they lived at 12, Nevens Street, Hunslet, Leeds. (census 1861)

1871- can't find Sarah, but Francis in a patient in the LGI hospital in Leeds, he died in March 1872.

1881-Sarah is now making sacks and lived at 28, Lands Court, Leeds with 9 year old Bertha, who was born in Wakefield. They also had a lodger...Joseph Wright 35 from Leeds.

1891-Sarah Jane. widow. sack maker
Bertha Greaves now Beckett 19. married. tailoress
Beatrice Beckett. daug. 3months.
All living at 3, Shepherds Fold, Leeds.
(Husband John was visiting his half brother William Mason at 9, Alan Street, Leeds)

1901 and 1911 already in thread.

A BIG THANK GOES TO EVERYONE ON THIS THREAD!
I couldn't have done it without you, as I wouldn't have found further information myself.

A BIGGER THANK YOU goes to Dea who found me a photo of my great grandmother Bertha and emailed it along with Berthas and Johns marriage certificate!

You are all so fantastic!

Your biggest fan

Debi, xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Marks up another small "FBG was right and JC wrong"on the calender... :D

I haven't had a lot of time to check through Janey but it doesn't seem to have any 'actual proof' of the name Greaves Pullen that I can see.

It is certainly given as her name on the cert and also her father's name on the cert.

The tree has given this name also to Francis's father William (Greaves Pullan) and Rebecca (another tree suggested maiden name of Giles for her?).

I haven't found a census or anything else yet with them stating their names as 'Greaves Pullan'.

Will have to leave it until later before I can look further.

Sorry,

Dea x

Dea! I don't suppose it gives any info about Francis's forebears? I mean, he was Greaves, not Greaves Pullan.

So for some reason Bertha was using the surname Pullan when she married, and touched up her father's name to match.


Francis's family in Leeds in 1851:

William Greaves 42
Rebecca Greaves 39
Elizabeth Greaves 18
Thomas Greaves 17
Francis Greaves 14
Jane Greaves 11
Edward Greaves 4
Sarah A Greaves 1
Rebecca Greaves 1 MO

and in 1841

William Greaves 30
Rebecca Greaves 25
Elizabeth Greaves 8
Thomas Greaves 7
William Greaves 5
Frances Greaves 3
Jane Greaves 2

so it doesn't look like a stepfather's name situation for Francis, for instance.

I do think that between 1881 and 1891, Sarah Jane Greaves must have partnered with a Pullan and Bertha was known by his surname.


And I was just reminding myself in my Reuben Cooper thread that that set of grx2 grandparents of mine weren't married at all ... well, not until nearly a decade after the birth of my gr-grparent, and 25 years after the birth of their first kid. Oops. ;)

Hi Debi,

I have found a tree on Ancestry which has a copy of that marriage cert.

It gives her father's name as Francis Greaves Pullan (dec) - looks like he was a Blacksmith? - His father was William Beckett - (dec) - looks like Engineer?

Both aged 19 and unmarried.

Witnesses were Geo. M Todd and Edith Radcliffe -

Her address at marriage - 16 Heed St and his - 13 Heed St.

The tree also has a lovely photo of Bertha.

Dea x

P.S. - If you can pm me your direct e-mail address, I can send on the details to you.

Dea x

Good grief. Well, that's them, anyhow!

Search 1881 census at Ancestry free -- but I'm pretty sure you can't see the images:

bhttp://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=7572&enc=1

but that one you did find, I think.

Here's the full 1891 from Ancestry:

Name: Sarah Jane Greaves
Age: 50
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1841
Relation: Head
Where born: Leeds

Name: Bertha Greaves (but the image says Beckett)
Age: 19
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1872
Relation: Daughter
Parent's Name: Sarah Jane Greaves
Where born: Wakefield, Yorkshire, England

Name: Beters Greaves (but the image says Beckett)
Age: 3/12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1891
Relation: Daughter
Parent's Name: Sarah Jane Greaves
Where born: Leeds


Births Dec 1841
Greaves Sarah Jane Leeds 23 353


Oh, wait.

1881

Name: Sarah J. Greaves
Age: 40
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1841
Relation: Head
> Where born: Holbeck, Yorkshire, England
- definitely says "Un"married


but 1861?

Name: Sarah Jane Greaves
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1841
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Francis Jno Greaves
> Where born: Holbeck, Yorkshire, England

Name: Francis Jno Greaves
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1838
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Sarah Jane Greaves
Where born: Leeds, Yorkshire, England

Civil parish: Hunslet

No kids.


Marriages Sep 1859
Driver Elizabeth Leeds 9b 401
? Greaves Francis John Leeds 9b 401
? Harrold Sarah Jane Leeds 9b 401
Taylor Jonathan Leeds 9b 401


Deaths Mar 1872
GREAVES Francis John 33 Leeds 9b 359


So it looks like you're saved. They were married! if that's them.

1881 census is free Debi,so you should at least be able to see the transcript on Ancestry or Findmypast if GR dont have it?
I will let Janey tell you the merits or not of GR records. :D

This is how FMP have 1891 and as GR use their records it should be the same maybe?Janey will correct me if I am wrong....
GREAVIS, Sarah Jane Head Widow F 50 1841 Sack Maker
Leeds
BACKETT, Bertha Daughter Married F 19 1872 Tailoress
Wakefield
Yorkshire
BACKETT, Beters Daughter F 0 (3M) 1891
Leeds
Address 3 Shepherds Fold
Leeds County: Yorkshire (West Riding)

Janey

I only have membership with Genes and they aren't showing the info you have found me on Ancestry...Don't understand why? VERY annoying!!!

When my six months run out, think I'm going to do a basic package on Genes, so I can still access the boards and sign up with Ancestry instead. More people on here seem to use that instead.

Cheers

Debi.x

It wasn't until I looked at the image of the 1891 census that I saw that Bertha had become Beckett, mistranscribed by Ancestry as Greaves simply because she was the daughter of Greaves, and her daughter Beters Greaves was really your Beatrice Beckett. ;)

Can you do Ancestry corrections or do you want that done? If you do, put info! Married whom and when, how you're related, info and contacts invited.


No question then, that's her. The Pullan? Hm. Hm. Maybe Sarah had lived with a Pullan between the censuses and Bertha went by that surname?

I think William Greaves Pullan is, unfortunately, a total coincidence.


FBG, tsk, I think not. The only unmarried ancestors of my own that I know of were victims of the law.

Samuel Littler married Elizabeth Rushland.
Sarai Rushland married ... I forget.

Anyhow, Samuel's and Sarai's respective spouses died, sometime around 1830 or something, so they got together.

But it was illegal to marry the sister of one's deceased wife, so they couldn't marry. They had a bunch of kids, though, my grx2 grfather among them. And they were the only prosperous ancestors in my tree! Oh, apart from the cabinetmaker in Canterbury ... whose father died in a workhouse in Wiltshire ... his parents having been deported from Dorset in 1791 as charges on the public purse ... One jokes, but how horrible it must have been.

To fess up, though, two of my female ancestors (and of course lord knows how many male ones) did reproduce before marriage, one known to have done so involuntarily. But they got married before my direct ancestors came along. ;)

Oh, well, and, who knows whether Hill/Monck's parents were married ... or who might have fathered him anyhow ...

Now of course in my generation, none of us has got married. Well, there were a couple of marriages of convenience, I must admit, but, ah, 'nuff said there!

It looks that way doesnt it Janey! Set of dirty sinful.... ;-)

They certainly havent made this easy for me!

I cant talk, I had my three children first THEN got married, least Im following a family tradition ;-)

Thanks again for your support

Debi x

Hmmmm,bit of a pot asking the kettle here methinks Janey......I seem to remember being told something similar in some persons ancestry who is not too far away???

;-)

Oh Janey, I was wondering where you were?

I did find 'that' Sarah and Bertha in the 1881 census but with there being no mention of the name Pullan I wasnt sure. So I thought maybe Sarah married a Pullan (as you advised me with Gaunts/Wilks case) and I couldnt find one!

If this is her and it looks like it is, why would she marry using Pullan as her surname???

Thanks again Janey!

Debi :-)

Possible Greaves-Pullan marriages (in the higher classes, which they seem to be, a surname as a middle name is more likely to be the mother's surname, or a traditional family surname):

(edit - wrong about that - Bertha's husband was a labourer; it was the other Greaves/Pullan household that were up higher on the ladder, an architect etc.)

Marriages Jun 1890
GRAVES Florence Halifax 9a 669
Greaves Florence Halifax 9a 669
PULLAN John Halifax 9a 669
(I think that means that one is Graves)

Marriages Sep 1872
Greaves Sophia Manchester 8d 672
Pullan John Manchester 8d 672

Don't know whether they're couples, they just are possibles.



But ... doesn't his look like our Bertha in 1881?

Name: Bertha Greaves
Age: 9
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1872
Relation: Daughter
Mother's name: Sarah J. Greaves
Gender: Female
Where born: Wakefield, Yorkshire, England

Civil parish: Leeds

Sarah J. Greaves 40 - sack making, unmarried
Bertha Greaves 9
Joseph Wright 35


Births Jun 1871
Greaves Bertha Wakefield 9c 29


In 1891 Sarah J is a widow, and still making sacks:

Sarah Jane Greaves 50
Bertha Greaves 19 -- it says BECKETT, married, tailoress
Beters Greaves 3/12 -- it says Beckett, daughter?? I'd make it Peter, but I dunno.


The Beckett/Greaves Pullan marriage was 1888.

Perfect fit.

There she is?


Aha, Beters:

Births Mar 1891
BECKETT Beatrice Leeds 9b 395


So Debi, were none of your ancestors married? ;)

Thank you Dea!

This is him in 1911 which shows more of the 'Greaves' connection - I will have to leave it to you all though to see if it connects.

I will pick it up again in the morning.

GREAVES, John Head Married M 26 1885 Architect Halifax Yorkshire VIEW
GREAVES, Mildred E Wife Married F 24 1887 Northallerton Yorkshire VIEW
PALLISER, Elizabeth M Sister In Law Single F 21 1890 Farnley Near Needs VIEW
PULLAN, William G Nephew Single M 20 1891 Dental Student Ottey Yorkshire VIEW


RG14PN604 RG78PN22 RD8 SD1 ED14 SN296


Address:
84 South Hill Park Hampstead N W County:
London

Hope it helps.

Dea x

Sorry Alviegal!

My mistake! Corrected it now, too many names in my head, sorry for the confusion.

Debi. x

I don't know !!! but I will post it anyway as I am going to bed soon !


1891 England Census
about William G Pullan Name: William G Pullan
Age: 1/12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1891
Relation: Son
Father's name: John Pullan
Mother's name: Florence Pullan
Gender: Male
Where born: Otley, Yorkshire, England

Civil parish: Otley
Ecclesiastical parish: Otley
Town: Otley
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England


Registration district: Wharefdale
Sub-registration district: Otley
ED, institution, or vessel: 20
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 3529
Folio: 82
Page Number: 15
Household Members: Name Age
John Pullan 31 Tailor **
Florence Pullan 22
William G Pullan 1/12

at 15 Cambridge Terrace......

Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 3529; Folio 82; Page 15; GSU roll: 6098639.

Dea x

Interesting!

Hannah would have been 19, I wonder how that could fit???

I really love all the mystery... and solving it!

My loved ones dont quite 'get' it!

Debi x