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I traced Mary Ann Bethel/Richards/Chapman back to her father Richard Chapman as shown in the 1851. I haven't found the link to Bethel as yet. With such an unusual name it should stand out but I'm jiggered if i can locate it.

Why send PM's?

And why............please.....don't you answer the simple questions which have been asked.

They are asked for a reason......not just to pass the time...............

pm from William

"The family don't know who his 1st wife was, that's what I'm tring to find out.
An earlier post suggests that he lived at 193 Oldfield Rd & having looked at the census for the period it does add together but, it put's the head of the household's surname a Wells, his relationship to William is stated as father, but it's confusing because Williams surname was definitely Chapman.
I've tried to check back from there but have had no luck as yet."


so given that Mary Ann Richards / Bethel / Chapman married Edward Wells, all that is wrong is that the enumerator described William as 'son' rather than 'step-son'

but is Mary Ann Richards Mary Ann Chapman???

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1890
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
RICHARDS Peter BETHEL Mary A Salford St Bartholomew Salford C43/7/250


EDIT

yes she was but father is Richard

Marriage: 21 Apr 1890 St Bartholomew, Salford, Lancashire, England
Peter Richards - (X), 52 Labourer Bachelor of 32 West Union St.
Mary Ann Bethel - (X), 48 House Keeper Widow of 32 West Union St.
Groom's Father: Thomas Richards, (deceased), Soldier
Bride's Father: Richard Chapman, (deceased), Labourer
Witness: M. Morgan; Ellen Elliott, (X)
Married by Banns by: G. W. Petherick
Register: Marriages 1888 - 1891, Page 125, Entry 250
Source: LDS Film 1786464

This looks like Thomas Hammond marriage to Ninny
Marriages Mar 1902
Hammond Thomas Jacob Salford 8d 82
Richards Mary Ellen Salford 8d 82

and Emily's birth:
Births Mar 1905
Hammond Emily Salford 8d 87

Death(if birth late registered) ?
Emily Lomas
Birth Date: Nov 1904
Death Registration Month/Year: Mar 1987
Age at death (estimated): 82
Registration district: Salford
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 39
Page: 712

The 1911 that Astra posted gives Ninny (as in Mary Ellen) marrying a Hammond and having a daughter Emily (1905).
The Mary Ann Wells in 1911 was born in 1843 in Barton, and the marriage to Edward was only 7 years previously, so the children are hers.
In 1901 Edward Wells was a lodger with her and her children, and she was Mary Ann Richards, widowed.
There is a very obvious Mary Ann Chapman born in Barton in 1843 in 1851 and 1861 censuses.

This looks like the family in 1891, with Edward Wells (as in Edward Henry John) already there:
1891 England Census
Peter Richards
Age: 52
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1839
Relation: Head Spouse's Name: Mary Ann Richards
Gender: Male Where born: Salford, Lancashire, England
Civil parish: Salford Ecclesiastical parish: St Bartholomew
County/Island: Lancashire Country: England
Registration district: Salford Sub-registration district: Regent Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 19 Piece: 3222 Folio: 82 Page Number: 42
Peter Richards 52
Mary Ann Richards 42
Robert Travis 16
William Travis 13
Mary Ellen Richards 7
Alice Crookes 60
Henry J Wells 19
George H Wells 17
Ada Warren 20
Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 3222; Folio 82; Page 42; GSU roll: 6098332.

Sorry, Astra, you had posted 1851 just above.

Marriages Mar 1903
Richards Mary Ann Salford 8d 72
Wells Edward John H Salford 8d 72

I don't look at PM's when the info should be on the thread.

Who did ELLEN (your grandmother) marry? When and where did she die?

Please just give the answers to those two points.....nothing else

This is mary Ann with her parents. The enumerator has made a bit of a mess of the entry. She gives Barton as her birthplace in every census. I can't find a marriage to William Travis.

You say in your first message that this is not the correct family. In your second message you say that it is correct. But quite frankly apart from the names there is nothing else to confirm it.

Mary Ann Chapman
Age: 9
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1842
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: James Constantine
Gender: F (Female)
Where born: Barton Upon Irwell
Civil parish: Barton Upon Irwell
Ecclesiastical parish: St Catharine
County/Island: Lancashire
Household Members: Name Age
Richard Chapman 44
Martha Chapman 44
Sarah Johnson 58
Elizth Chapman 14
Ellen Chapman 11
Mary Ann Chapman 9
Thos Chapman 2
James Consterdine 70 >>>>>Father in Law
Hannah Johnson 75 >>>>>>Lodger

Mmmm

Name: William Traves
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary Ann Traves
[Martha Chapman]
Gender: Male
Where born: Warrington
Civil parish: Salford
Ecclesiastical parish: St Bartholomew
Town: Salford
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: Salford
William Traves 23
Mary Ann Traves 28
Joseph Chapman 53 >>>>>Lodger>>>>Born Salford
Martha Chapman 33 >>>>Lodgers wife>>>>Born Cheshire Stockport

Thanks for the messages William. I closed down after i had posted the census info last night so I have just read through the thread to catch up.

This family seem to be a catalogue of coincidences. We have the name Tranter already being the maiden name of Ellen who maried the William Chapman I posted.
Tracing William back it seems he was called Travis. The only problem is that there is no Reginald and no Peter so I'm not convinced that this is the correct family.

William Travis
Age: 3
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1878
Relation: Son
Father's name: William Travis
Mother's name: Mary Travis
Gender: Male
Where born: Salford, Lancashire, England
Civil parish: Salford
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address: 6 Windsor St
Household Members: Name Age
William Travis 34
Mary Travis 38
Robert Travis 7
William Travis 3
George Travis
William A. Wood 26
Amy Wood 23
Jonathan Wood 3
William Wood 1

Emily Hammond:
Marriages Jun 1924
Hammond Emily Lomas Salford 8d 131
Lomas Henry Hammond Salford 8d 131

You need to apply for this certificate, pay the money, and get the names of the Fathers, and Emily's age.

If you know when Emily was born, have you applied for that birth certificate to find her parents names.

To get any certificate:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/Certificates.html

Just because someone spent their childhood in Sheerness does not mean they were born there. They could have moved there at a young age.

please can yo tell us where you found William's age at death

that 1962 reg cannot reasonably be him if he died in New Year's Eve.His death would not have been registered until at least 1st Jan 1963 therefore making the reg mar qtr 1963

what age does he give on the certificate of his marriage to lillian

you do not say who and when William married the first time

is this a coincidence?

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1907
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
CHAPMAN William TRANTER Ellen Salford St Bartholomew Salford C43/11/496

as Flick said - if he was 83 when he died he was born in 1879 NOT 1869

@Flick

As my email says, the marriage cert for William Chapman & Lillian Rowlands doesn't give us any leads. It only says he was a widower.
The dob is suspect, doesn't match up with what we already know from his age at death. Which says about 1869.
Maybe he wasn't telling the truth about his age when he married Lillian.

I don't want to exasperate anyone, I was just asking for help.
Regards

Sorry, but I can't go any further with this.......you don't seem able to differentiate between certs and indexes

If you ever decide to purchase the 1933 marriage cert, come back to us with some factual details about William Chapman.

@Flick

That's why I am asking for help, I'm completely stuck.

@Flick no I can't find a refernce to it, the one I had is wrong.

What I have noticed in the 2 years of my family research is that the actual dob may not be exactly the same as the enrty in the records, I have notcied that the only give the quarter and not the month.
I have also been told that in some cases the when a census was carried out a lot of people were illiterate & the census taker wrote in the names as he thought they should be spelled, hence errors in the entries for 1st & surnames.
I have found this in some cases when I get certs for family members that are now dead, but were born in the 40's 50's & 60's.
Regards all

Exactly.........your original post says 1869!!!

William.............

I think you are confusing records on line with certs.............

Can you just answer one question with a 'yes' or 'no'

Do you have the certificate for the birth of Ellen Chapman?

@Flick again,

My Great Great Grandfather William was 83 in 1962 when he died which makes his dob as 1879.
Unless my maths are wrong:-)
Regards