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Hi Graham

This could be the death registration of the Alexander washed ashore at Lytham:

Deaths Dec 1861 (>99%)
Robertson Alexander Fylde 8e 379

Unfortuneatly, English death certs give very little personal information, but it should have his age at death.

Have you tried a search of newspapers at the time? I believe you can search Lancashire Libraries newspaper archives online.

Potty

FTF have informed that marriage took place @ Parish Church of St George in the East and as I have not heard anything from All Saints Church accept that my hunch was wrong!..FTF also found that Alexander died at sea Nov 12 1861 but so far have not been able to establish his age on that date but at least it confirms that we now know that Helen Stewart was his wife...am also following up a clue that Alexander may have been the master of the brig Stella wrecked off Lytham and a body was washed ashore at Fleetwood with a bank receipt in the pockets bearing his name...am hoping my local Records Office may be able to assist me further with this one.
Regards
Graham

Potty

FTF have told me that Joseph's address at the time of the marriage was 32 Heritage Road( they don't say where!) father Alexander Robertson,Master Mariner, witness Emma Waters...also English marriage certs don't give place of birth of bride or groom.

. I.have 1851 Census 2 Sampsons Gardens,Parish St George,East Mddx Tower Hamlets.. John Waters(Head) widower.George,son,Ellen,daug, Emma,daug age 14 so it looks hopeful that this confirms we are on the right track

I found a Hermitage Road SE 19 and not too far away All Saints Church ,Upper Norwood,SE19 and in the hope that this is the place of the marriage have contacted them for any info in their records for 1857 which could help me further so now must wait to see if they respond!!

Regards
Graham

Graham

The LMA record of the birth will probably have just what the marriage cert from the GRO will have:

Names, ages, addresses and occupations of the two partners (although none of the women on mine have their occupations listed!) and their fathers' names and occupations and the names of the two witnesses. There is nothing to show whether or not the fathers were actually present at the marriage.

Even if there is an Alexander as a witness, it does not prove that he Joseph's father - he could be another relative. Relationships of witnesses to the partners are not shown on marriage records in England.

Potty
My cousin confirms that Alexander was a Master Mariner and believes that he was present at Joseph's wedding.

Have contacted LMA (Oct 7th ) requesting whether Joseph's age /address /place of birth and names of his parents and witnesses will be recorded but so far have had no response.

Grateful for all your help

Regards
Graham

This looks like the Mary F Robertson from the 1861 and her father was Alexander (presumably the brother of the Helen you found in 1861) but he wasn't a Master Mariner. Have you found any proof that Joseph's father was a Master Mariner? Is it mentioned on his LMA marriage record?

1851 England Census
about Mary Frac Robertson
Name: Mary Frac Robertson
Age: 2 MO
Estimated birth year: abt 1851
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Alexander Robertson
Mother's Name: Mary Robertson
Gender: Female
Where born: Bath, Somerset, England

Civil parish: Walcot
Ecclesiastical parish: Trinity
County/Island: Somerset
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View image

Registration district: Bath
Sub-registration district: Lansdown
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 85
Household Members: Name Age
Alexander Robertson 52 Merchant formerly in China, b Aberdeen
Mary Robertson 19 b Invernessshire, Craig
Jane Williamson 29
Ann Saunders 30
Mary Milven 22
John G Feere 49
Mary Frac Robertson 2 MO

Mary is obviously too young to be Joseph's mother. Mary Frances's birth cert would give her maiden name and her marriage to Alexander might show if he was a widower but if they were married in Scotland it would be before civil registration so probably the PR wouldn't give very much info.

Mary Frances's birth reg:

Births Mar 1851 (>99%)
Robertson Mary Frances Bath 11 22

Graham

I have checked all the Helen Stewarts living in Middlesex on the 1861. Also the Ellens - none of them look right. I also tried doing an address search but could not find a Brunswick Terrace, Commercial Road.

Actually, you cannot be sure that the death found is for your Alexander. There was certainly more than one Alexander Robertson who was a Master Mariner.

Maybe Joseph's address on his marriage cert will help?

Potty

Had a thought re Helen Stewart ..her granddaughter Ada Ward Robertson (daughter of Joseph ) b1871 could have been given Helen's maiden name of Ward as a middle name a common practice in Scottish families in the past in. fact I had an aunt Charlotte Ward Duncan b1887 in Leeds

Graham, I will post that 1861 census, in case anybody else is also looking:

1861 England Census
about Helen Robertson
Name: Helen Robertson
Age: 50 - age is not clear on image, but looks more like 58 to me, making DOB 1803
Estimated birth year: abt 1811
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Aberdeen, Scotland

Civil parish: Westminster St James
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Registration district: St James Westminster
Sub-registration district: St Jamess Square
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Helen Robertson 50 unmarried, Fundholder
Mary F Robertson 10 neice, b Gloucestershire, Bath
Henrietta Hewer 28 governess, b Guernsey
Ann Sutherland 52 nurse, b Inverness

Potty,
Thanks for this but could the unmarried entry be an error?

It would help if Helen Stewart's maiden name was known and the ages of both Alexander & Helen in1861(together with place of birth of each) could be found as this would enable me to trace Joseph's birth details through their marriage records.
Regards
Graham

Not sure if the Helen you found in 1861 is the right one - she is shown as unmarried.

Hi Potty

Tried this but failed to get it....familyforum have come up with fact that Alexander died at sea Nov 12 1861 his widow was Helen Stewart Robertson 5 Brunswick Terrace,Commercial Road,County of Middlesex I looked at Census 1861 32 St James Square,Westminister and found a Helen Robertson age 58 Head Fundholder born Aberdeen ..presume this to be the same person.
Regards
Graham

Graham,

Try this link for the Master Mariners List:

http://books.google.com/books?pg=PT64&id=0ekNAAAAQAAJ#v=onepage&q&f=false

It is a book in PDF form. On the left of the screen is a box with "search this book" in it. Type in Robertson and then scroll down to p113 - Joseph is there.

Hi Potty
Could not find the link but have joined familytreeforum site and posted request for Joseph/Alexander info.. so far one reply suggesting Scotspeople which have been using for ages! pc is still a bit iffy or is it just me??
Regards Graham

Potty this looks most interesting!!! thanks a lot tried to get onto this one but pc playing me up so will try again later
Regards
Graham

Thanks again for all your info & suggestions spoke to helpful lady @ Michell Library this am and will be sending email to t o them will do likewise with Glasgow City Council
Regards
Graham

Graham, googled Master Mariners 1860 and this was one of the hits:
http://www.familytreeforum.com/showthread.php/70919-Might-be-of-use-Master-mariners-1860

The link takes you to a list of Mates and Captains. It show that a Joseph Robertson was issued with his Mates certificate in 1857 in London. He is on page 113 of the book. There are three Alexanders listed as well, all getting their certs earlier that Joseph.

Graham, given that Ellen died in Tradeston, then the most likely cemetery would be Craigton Cemetery which was privately owned and until just a very few years ago the records were held by a Glasgow lawyers office. They have now been passed to the City Council. The Mitchell library, as far as I remember doesn't have any records for it. (My Great Grandparents and some of their family are buried there and they too came from Tradeston). If you contact, by letter, Glasgow City Council, Bereavement Services, 20 Trongate, Glasgow giving them all the details from Ellen's death registration they will try to help you. There may be a small charge for this and it may take about 6 weeks because, as you will understand, their first priority is current burials and cremations. Ask, in your letter, for a lair number and other burials in the same lair. Please be aware though that it was not uncommon for people to be buried in a communal lair if they had insufficient funds to buy a private lair.

Good Luck.

Ellen
Thanks for all this confirm Scotspeople search on 1901 Census shows Ellen as widow ..death searches on Cochranes didn't reveal any connection with Robertson as a parent so can only conclude that Joseph died somewhere between 1891-1901 am placing a request with Mitchell Library for any info on Joseph/Alexander, as you suggest... this is all becoming a bit of an epic !
Regards
Graham

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MINNIE EMMA ROBERTSON Pedigree
Female

13 FEB 1869 Tradeston, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
JOSEPH ROBERTSON Family
Mother: ELLEN ELIZABETH WATERS