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New message from Joy:

KiwiJoy Today at 06:26 Request review
I'm now back from my holiday in Sydney and the Cert. has arrived and I thought you may be interested in what it said - after all the help you gave me. Unfortunately it is bad news:- it is for a Mary Janet b. 30 Dec. 1901, Father Samuel Lee, Mother Annie Lee, formerly McDonald, living at 13 Ivy Street, Newcastle. I've checked all of my Grandmothers siblings to see if maybe there was a Samuel Lee, but there wasn't, so I don't know where to go from here.

It looks like you may have to pay up on your bet with Dea, Ginny. What was it - something about a Blackjack to a Fruit Salad? :-)

Anyway ladies thank you all so very much for your help. That now makes 2 brick walls I have to break down - one of these days...

Cheers
Joy :-)

Dea x

Hi Ginny,
Thanks for that address, saves me having to wait until after 8pm on Tuesday over here before I can ring...
I most certainly let you all know the outcome, but I was looking at William's family with his first wife, Bridget and I see he already has a daughter named Mary E Vevers. I'm hoping she was maybe Mary "Elizabeth" and went by the name of either Betty or Elizabeth and this one I'm checking on will be Mary Ethel, so will go by the name of Ethel, as my Grandmother did?
I'm hoping for a favourable outcome and keeping everything crossed, but I'm still not too sure. We can only wait and see.

Thanks once again for letting me know about ordering online.

Cheers.

Joy :-)

Hi Joy

You can order online and pay by credit card if you like

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/

Please come back to us when the certificate arrives, I think we are just as eager as you to find out!

Fingers crossed

x

Hi Rose

Thanks ever so much for letting me know that the "Certs Office" will be closed on Monday, saved me a few 'pennies'. I shall pencil in the phone call for Tuesday now. Ah well, I don't suppose that one more day will make a big difference...

Thanks again.

Joy :-)

Joy,

Monday's a holiday in the UK.

Rose

Hi, Shirley, Ginny and Dea,

Gosh you ladies have been very busy whilst I was in my bed.
Having read all your Posts I really think I will have to get the Cert. for Mary Jane Lee, as it seems that that will be the only way to prove it one way or another.

Between the 3 of you you have certainly widened my perspective and thought of things that I certainly would not have thought of, so thank you all most heartily once again.

As soon as the office opens for Certificates on Monday night, (my time) I shall be ringing them and hopefully in 3 weeks time I shall have solved the mystery!

Thanks once again, you're all STARS...

Cheers.

Joy :-)

I suspect you may well be right Ginny !

Dea x

Dea Dea...

Now you as an experinced researcher know that you cant trust census records...

....what about the one a while ago that had his occupation as an international play boy ;)

We cant be sure of who Mary Jane Lee's mother was until we have a cert, but she's sure not around on the 1911 and Mary Vevers is...who wasnt born according to records!

I'll bet you a blackjack to a fruit salad its the same person!

x

Thanks Shirley, but I am not sure as, if they completed the form correctly, James was not from 'their' marriage but from Williams previous marriage to Bridget!

All a little 'strange' ??

Dea x

Just a litle thought on the matter .the census asks how many children born to the marriage but if she was born pre marriage then maybe they thought she shouldnt be included The Vevers do say they had one child still living from their marriage which would be James as shown on the 1901 census

Ginny,

I'm sure I found a Mary Lee who fitted on 1911 - I will go and have another look.

Dea x

Edit:
No- you are right Ginny - I found a Mary but her birth was registered in Morpeth and the Mary Jane I saw was born c 1903.
Both of these births appear on Bmd as well as the one you found !

Dea x

Dea

I see what you are saying but if the Mary Jane Lee was brought up with her grandparents and it was a 'secret' then she would have been listed on the census as Vevers

Just looked on the 1911 census for a Mary Jane Lee and there isnt one!

Theres no death listed for a Mary Jane Lee either...I think that is evidence enough

Hi Dea

Thanks once again for all your useful information, especially the 1911 Census. I didn't have that. But there isn't a Walter born to James and Mary, it's actually Walton. Obviously "N" was taken for an "R".
I've got so much to think about now, but I think that maybe Mary Vevers will stay a mystery. And I'm too tired to think anymore at the moment as its nearly 10.30pm.

Thanks ever so much for your help Dea. I really appreciate it.

Joy :-)

Hi Ginny

Thanks for all the information, I think I'll have to sleep on it as it's almost my bedtime. Not too sure what I'll do, but I've got a lot to be going on with.

Thanks again for putting yourself out for me.

Joy :-)

I really don't think that Mary 'belongs' to James + Mary Ethel.

They show on 1911 as having had 4 children and all of them are there with them.

VEVERS, James Toward Head Single M 29 1882 Labourer Newcastle on Tyne
VEVERS, Mary Ethel Wife Married 10 years F 28 1883 Lead Gate Durham
VEVERS, Margaret Annie Daughter Single F 9 1902 Benwell Newcastle upon Tyne
VEVERS, Walter Son Single M 6 1905 Benwell Newcastle upon Tyne
VEVERS, William Son Single M 4 1907 Benwell Newcastle upon Tyne
VEVERS, Maud Daughter Single F 2 1909 Benwell Newcastle upon Tyne


Address:
27 Elm St Fenham Newcastle-Upon-Tyne County:
Northumberland

'IF' Mary is the daughter of James, I am sure the mother must have been someone other than the lady he married. ?

Only that cert will tell you though!

Dea x

Joy my advice remains the same. Get the certificate for Mary Jane Lee

Births Mar 1902 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lee Mary Jane Newcastle T. 10b 39


Theres a whole host of reasons why Mary might have brought up with her grandparents...how many children thought their grandparents were their parents....too many to mention here me thinks

I think if you get the certificate you may well find the mother is Mary Ethel Lee

I'm afraid it's down to you now

x

Hi Ginny

I definitely have all my Mam's brothers and sisters accounted for, including the first child James, who died the same year he was born in 1904. If Mary was the first child of James and Mary Ethel, why would they give her away to her Grandfather? It seems a strange thing to do? I've checked all the births from 1896 to1906 and not found a Mary Vevers to either William and Margaret or James and Mary. Have you any suggestions as to where I could look next?
If she was born in Scotland why would they put Northumberland on the Census?
I might have a look and see if I can see a Margaret Little somewhere before she got married, maybe she has a family in Northumberland too. I'm getting desperate now!!

Thanks again Ginny for your help I truly appreciate it..

Joy :-)

Hi Dea

Thanks for your input to my problem It's such a shame after the work you and Ginny put into my query that Mary's birth is still a mystery. This Vevers branch of mine is causing me all sorts of problems at every step. I'm surprised I have any hair left !

Thanks for your help it was very much appreciated.

Joy :-)

Joy

Have a read at the suggestions that Mary was not born a 'Vevers' but possibly a 'Lee'

I think that 'Peggy' and 'Mary' are very likley to be sisters, but you need the birth certificate to check that James and Mary Ethel are the parents

Hi Ginny

Yes you have the correct marriage for William and Margaret. I have a copy of their Wedding Cert. Married 15 August 1896. William was 43 and Margaret was 40. It was Williams 2nd Marriage

I was going to send you the details of the 1911 Census but i see Dea has beating me to it.


The James Vevers you mention is actually my Grandfather, He's Williams son from Williams first marriage to Bridget (nee Tarpey), which you found beforeI had a chance to write back to you. ( And I can't find Bridget's death either...)

James Toward Vevers and Mary Ethel Lee are my Grandparents and now that you have worked out that Margaret Annie was their child, I feel such a fool although she went by the name of Peggy and that's why It didn't click.

Why would it be then that nobody can find her birth. Wouldn't she have had to be registered? I can't find her on Genes and I can't find her on Free BMD. Is there anywhere else I could try?

Thanks ever so much for all your help I really appreciate it. Just a pity I had the wrong person!

Joy :-)