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1871

BUTLER, James Head M 36 1835 Lancashire
BUTLER, Elizabeth Wife F 35 1836 Lancashire
BUTLER, John Son M 13 1858 Lancashire
BUTLER, Ellen R Daughter F 1 1870 Lancashire
Piece:
4211 Folio:
7 Page:
7 Registration District:
Preston
Civil Parish:
Preston Municipal Borough:
Preston Address:
Atkinson Street, Preston County:
Lancashire


Births Sep 1869 (>99%)
---------------------------------------------------------
BUTLER Ellen Roper Preston 8e 551


(would agree 1901 should be Butler!)

Chris :)

I wonder if the 1901 Ellen Rutter has also been mis-transcribed and should be Ellen Butler

see my post above for the relationship between mother & lodger

@Chris
Very well spotted, regarding the surnames of mother and lodger from 1911 and 1891.
I had not noticed that!
I wonder if they were related?

David

as I do not have access to census data I was only going on the assumption that the John Robert on the 1901 & 1911 censuses on p1 was the right person

in 1881 John R worked for the GPO

in 1901 John R was 42 & wife Ellen 44

in 1911 John R had died & widow Ellen is only 41 (ie 13 yrs younger than 1901 Ellen) which fits with the age at death that you have and the age of the Ellen Butler lodger in 1891

There is an Ellen Holden age 45 who died in Preston in 1902 which fits with the 1901 Ellen

Chris has said that the mother's name on the 1911 is Butler which fits with the 2nd marriage in 1905 to an Ellen Butler , (see page 1) his 1st wife also being called Ellen Eccleston if the other marriage (Richard's parents) is correct

Just adding, looking at 1911 image, surname of Mother Elizabeth is Butler, not Holden...(must have something to do with lodger Ellen on other census?)

(apologies if already noted, just reading in again!)

Chris :)


1891

HOLDEN, John R Head Married M 33 1858 Postman
Preston
Lancashire
HOLDEN, Ellen Wife Married F 34 1857 Dressmaker
Preston
Lancashire
HOLDEN, Richard Son M 10 1881
Preston
Lancashire
BUTLER, Ellen R Boarder Single F 21 1870 Machinist
Preston
Lancashire
Piece:
3432 Folio:
80 Page:
9 Registration District:
Preston
Civil Parish:
Preston Municipal Borough:
Preston Address:
1, St Pauls Square, Preston County:
Lancashire

@lancashireAnn
Thank you again for your continued help.
I am not sure why you think that Ellen may have been John's 2nd wife. They are on the 1891 census with 6 month old son and he is (only) 24 she is 25.
I would be very interested in any information regarding Ellen's marriage to Albert Appleby, especially witness names etc.
I do believe though that Ellen was Florrie's birth mother. Ellen lived with Florrie and her family for at least the last 8 years of her life and was well known to my Mum and Dad.
I can add another 'fact' to my list above
7) A. Appleby was a witness at the marriage of Florrie Holden to Harold Squires (my Grand Father) in 1920.
In answer to my original question on all this, I think I am beginning to think that Florrie Holden is the one shown with parents John R Holden and Ellen Holden in the 1901 census. I had originally been thrown a bit by the fact that John R is on the census as a Publican yet shown as a postman in 1920. He is however shown as a Postman on the 1891 census. The age of Ellen in the 1901 census didn't seem correct either because it was always thought in the family that she was 84 (and confirmed by the death indexes) when she died in 1954, whereas this would make her 97.
I just wanted to be 100% sure and I had also been hoping to find out Ellen's maiden name.

it might be interesting to see the marriage details for the Appleby/ Holden marriage. I will look for you next time I am at the lancs Record Office. It is possible if the John Robert / Ellen marriages are right that she was John's 2nd wife and therefore not actually Florries birth mother.

thanks David - it just helps to get a clearer picture of the line

@lancashireAnn
It may be worth me re-stating the facts I know to be correct:
1) Florrie Holden's father was John Holden (source - her marriage cert in 1920)
2) Florrie's mother was known as Mrs Appleby from 1946 until she died in 1954 (source - my Mum knew her and confirmed this again yesterday)
3) Based on 2) above, I realised she must have re-married to become a Mrs Appleby from a Mrs Holden)
4) I found a marriage for an Ellen Holden marrying an Albert Appleby in 1914.
5) I then found a death for a John Holden in 1907
6) I do not know the maiden name of Ellen, only her married name(s).

I wonder if Florrie stated her father was a postman on her marriage (not unusal for a father not to be described as deceased when he was, it probably dependede on how the registrar phrased the question about father's name) as her brother Richard probably was and John Robert worked for the GPO when he married

John R. HOLDEN Head M Male 24 Preston, Lancashire, England Mail Porter GPO (Csm)
Ellen HOLDEN Wife M Female 25 Preston, Lancashire, England Dressmaker
Richard HOLDEN Son Male 6 m Preston, Lancashire, England

Source Information:
Dwelling 270 North Rd
Census Place Preston, Lancashire, England
Family History Library Film 1342012
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 4229 / 16
Page Number 25

if Florrie father was the John Robert above it is possible he married 2 different Ellen's which accounts for the large age difference for Ellen between 1901 and 19011

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1879
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
HOLDEN John Robert ECCLESTON Ellen Preston Register Office or Registrar Attended Preston PRESTON/67/111

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1905
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
HOLDEN John Robert BUTLER Ellen Roper Preston Register Office or Registrar Attended Preston PRESTON/124/140


Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1902
Surname Forename(s) Age Sub-District Registers At Reference
HOLDEN Ellen 45 Trinity Preston TR/43/86

age fits with 1901 census

could you give us the marriage of Florries mother in 1914 please as you said above you were not sure where you got Florrie's mother name from

presumably if you have the details of that marriage you know what Florrie's mother's maiden name was

what was Florrie's occupation on her marriage certificate and do the witnesses give any clues?

from this David

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1920
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
SQUIRES Harold HOLDEN Florrie Preston, Emmanuel Preston 226/5/312

Have come across this before David.

Have you looked for a possible Death of John?...(admitting to the fact that the area concerned, I'm not too familiar with, still learning!!)

Chris :)

@ Chris Ho
Although Florrie's father is shown as a Postman in 1920 on her marriage certificate, her mother remarried in 1914 as a widow. I cannot therefore understand why it did not show her father as Postman (Deceased)

@lancashireAnn
Thank you for your continuing help.
I have the certificate so I can confirm that Florence Holden did marry at The Parish Church of Emmanuel, Preston, to my Grand father, Harold Squires in April 1920.
Could I ask how you knew that though because I don't think it shows it above.

I asked because there is this baptism at the same church where she married

Baptisms: 4 Mar 1894 Emmanuel, Preston, Lancashire, England
Florence Holden - Child of John Holden & Elizabeth
Abode: 7 Eastham Street
Occupation: Overlooker
Baptised by: E. S. Murdoch Vicar
Register: Baptisms 1885 - 1895, Page 229, Entry 3772
Source: LDS Film 1471021

@lancashireAnn
I got the name of her father from her marriage certificate to Harold Squires in 1920. I am not sure where the mothers name came from now!

@Chris Ho
The father of Florrie was a Postman in 1920 when Florrie got married to Harold Squires, in Preston Lancashire.

Sorry, mother was Susan.

Florence May Holden

Birth: 01 MAY 1894
Christening: 27 JUN 1894 St Catherine's, Edge-Hill, , Lancashire

Father: John Holden
Mother: Susan