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Meg your anything but "cold", you may feel or have been told your cold because your a practical person but in fact I feel its quite the reverse your so helpful, patient and caring all these things are true because it they weren't you wouldn't be on here sharing your expertise.
Meg I refuse to think of you as cold.........to me your a warm,witty and welcoming woman who's so willing to help others.
I am so pleased you found Alma, out of confusion(me) comes order(Alma) do let me know how you go on and I'll get Williams birth cert, really have to know just who his mother was.
Ellen Bailey (Williams wife), on John Williams birth cert Ellen put a cross, it said Mothers mark and it was just a cross, she couldn't write bless her.
Stay safe Meg

Well, a side effect of this post is that David has found my Alma, the widow of my gt uncle Leonard Stokes. Sent me a pm. She remarried, and am off to find her descendants.

Cheers all, every little helps.

I guess this is John William in 1911 (he's the only one that fits at all):

GOODWIN, James Head Married M 61 1850 No Work Norton Parish County of Stafford VIEW
GOODWIN, Marinda Wife Married
38 years F 58 1853 Norton Parish County of Stafford VIEW
GOODWIN, Sarah Ann Daughter Single F 35 1876 Dressmaker Norton Parish County of Stafford VIEW
GOODWIN, James Son Single M 16 1895 Labourer On Scr Norton Parish County of Stafford VIEW
SLACK, Annie Grand Daugh F 9 1902 Norton Parish County of Stafford VIEW
GOODWIN, Richard Boarder Single M 57 1854 Labourer Banksman Norton Parish County of Stafford VIEW
SIMCOCK, John Boarder Single M 21 1890 Coal Miner Loader Endon Staffordshire VIEW

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RG number:
RG14 Piece:
16614 Reference:
RG14PN16614 RG78PN1027 RD362 SD1 ED2 SN43

Registration District:
Leek Sub District:
Norton EnumerationDistrict:
2 Parish:
Norton in the Moors

Address:
Sandy Lane County:
Staffordshire

This could be her death:

England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2005
about Ellen Simcock
Name: Ellen Simcock
Death Registration Month/Year: 1941
Age at death (estimated): 73
Registration district: Leek
Inferred County: Staffordshire
Volume: 6b
Page: 430

Unless your family have some objection, I'd consider getting that CWGC record amended to add her name to it. You will need full evidence, birth, marriage, death certs. It doesn't cost anything to do, and I sent all my stuff on a CD.

I am told that about 1921 they wrote to all know next of kins and asked them what they wanted to be recorded. So if William said he only wanted himself recorded, that is what they would have done. But they destroyed all the replies, so you could get Ellen added I am sure.

Good luck for the 6 a.m. shift tomorrow!

PS I don't think Emily comes into anything, unless she is a cousin way back.

No, Pauline, it's not daft, you do what you need to. You might gather I'm rather a practical person, some would say "cold", but I feel that these things happened to so many families, and we must be proud of them. Without their sacrifices we would not be living as we do today.

My dad lost three uncles in WW1, and nobody ever mentioned them, I only found them through my family history research and people then said "Oh, yes, there was an Uncle Leonard" and so on. My mum's aunt lost her first husband young in WW1 and he was never mentioned either, even by her own direct family. Her own daughter didn't know until I told her. They were just used to losing their menfolk at that time, and we must try to feel the same.

Every year now, I pay for one of those little crosses that goes in the garden of remembrance at Lambeth Palace. I've never done much more than buy a poppy for 5p in the past, but now I know I have so many rellies who died, I donate rather more, and the little cross won't fit them all on now!!!

So why does the cwgc only mention his father and not his mother? We must investigate that, because of my 5 rellies who died in WW1, 3 were wrongly recorded, and I got them changed.

1901 England Census
about Miriam Simcock
Name: Miriam Simcock
Age: 9
Estimated birth year: abt 1892
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Ellen
Gender: Female
Where born: Baddeley Green, Staffordshire, England

Civil parish: Endon and Stanley
Ecclesiastical parish: Endon St Luke
Town: Stockton Brook
County/Island: Staffordshire
Country: England

Registration district: Leek
Sub-registration district: Norton
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 15
Household Members: Name Age
William Simcock 35
Ellen Simcock 33
John William Simcock 11
Miriam Simcock 9
Bertha Simcock 7
Stanley H Simcock 2

Can't find a reason why only his father is mentioned on the cwgc site. Do you have a death for Ellen Simcock?

Yes that's the one, I never realized that my grandfather, Christopher, was a twin until I started my tree lol.

Thank you Meg its very good of you to be so patiencet it is greatly appreciated, I need to go to bed now as I'm on duty at 06.30.
Once again thank you so much

Pauline

Ah, he died Dec 1917, age 28 (which is about right Pauline if he was 1 in 1891). Son of William. So presumably William's wife Ellen had predeceased him? But I can't find a suitable death.

Where is the family in 1901 and 1911?

Off to look.

SIMCOCK, William Head Married
21 years M 45 1866 Coal Miner Face Man Brown Edge Staffordshire VIEW
SIMCOCK, Ellen Wife Married F 43 1868 Stockton Brook Staffs VIEW
SIMCOCK, Miriam Daughter Single F 19 1892 Domestic Servant Beddley Green Staffs VIEW
SIMCOCK, Bertha Daughter Single F 17 1894 Beddley Green Staffs VIEW
SIMCOCK, Stanley Herbert Son M 12 1899 Stockton Brook Staffs VIEW
SIMCOCK, Fredrick Son M 7 1904 Stockton Brook Staffs VIEW
SIMCOCK, Christopher Son M 7 1904 Stockton Brook Staffs VIEW
SIMCOCK, Arthur Son M 4 1907 Stockton Brook Staffs VIEW
SIMCOCK, May Daughter F 2 1909 Stockton Brook Staffs VIEW
SIMCOCK, Humphrey Walter Son M 1 1910 Endon Staffs VIEW

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RG number:
RG14 Piece:
16614 Reference:
RG14PN16614 RG78PN1027 RD362 SD1 ED2 SN66

Registration District:
Leek Sub District:
Norton EnumerationDistrict:
2 Parish:
Norton in the Moors

Address:
Sandy Lane County:
Staffordshire

No John William - left home?

Is this the right family, Pauline?

Its all so sad isn't it what these honorable and brave young men went through to give us what we have to day and so sad for the young brides they left behind and of course the babies they never got to know.
John William has become a consuming obsession I cant help it, I think about him everyday and wonder why I cant recall anyone talking about him, maybe I was to young to remember but I do recall a picture over my nans fireplace and I remember thinking how much like my own father looked like him.
I cry everyday for him Meg....daft or what

I must add, I am sorry to hear that John William died in WW1. I have 7 rellies died in that war. Must tell you about my great uncle Leonard Stokes, born 1898. Married his sweetheart Alma in Feb 1917, died 4 months later age 19, not knowing his young wife was pregnant with their daughter. Little Alma was born October 1917, sadly died aged 18 months of diptheria. I've never discovered what happened to her mother after that.

So, I hope we've managed to solve the great grandparents of John William.

That all does make sense but now I have to work out where Emily comes into the equation

Waterfall Farm
On John Williams military death cert it clearly states:
Name: Simcock J. W.
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment: North Staffordshire Regiment
Unit Text: 8th Bn
Age: 28 (not 30)
Additional information: Son of William Simcock of Waterfall Farm, Basnetts Wood, Endon, Staffs

Thank you for all your help I am now going to see if I can get (at least) Williams birth cert to see just who was his mother

I think we've got him three times now, working in tandem! or tricycle!

Pauline, family memories are wonderful as back-up, but there is no substitute for hard evidence.

I'm 100% confident, thanks to mine and other people's convictions, that William's parents are James and Harriet.

It all keeps the old grey matter working!

Oh, here she is:

1891 England Census
about John W Symcock
Name: John W Symcock
Age: 1
Estimated birth year: abt 1890
Relation: Grandson
Mother's Name: Ellen
Gender: Male
Where born: Baddaley Green, Staffordshire, England

Civil parish: Norton in The Moors
Ecclesiastical parish: St Phillip and St James
Town: Milton
County/Island: Staffordshire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Leek
Sub-registration district: Norton
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Samuel Bailey 43
Pheobe Bailey 40
Hannah E Bailey 20
Annie Bailey 13
Mary A Bailey 11
Ellen Bailey 22 (Original says Symcock, married, daughter, visitor)
John W Symcock 1 Grandson

Well, that's it then.

in 1891, Ellen is with her parents and William is with his, who are - James and Harriet, not James and Emily.

Still don't know where Waterfall Farm came in?

1891 Ancestry
Name: John W Symcock
Age: 1
Estimated birth year: abt 1890
Relation: Grandson
Mother's Name: Ellen
Gender: Male
Where born: Baddaley Green, Staffordshire, England
Civil parish: Norton in The Moors
Ecclesiastical parish: St Phillip and St James
Town: Milton
County/Island: Staffordshire
Country: England
Street Address:
Registration district: Leek
Sub-registration district: Norton
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Samuel Bailey 43
Pheobe Bailey 40
Hannah E Bailey 20
Annie Bailey 13
Mary A Bailey 11
Ellen Bailey 22
John W Symcock 1
Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 2184; Folio 119; Page 44; GSU roll: 6097294.

Maureen

Ellen had her first child, John William in 1889, J.W fought in the first world war and sadly died on his birthday December 30th 1917

Sorry Meg don't blame you for beeping lol, Waterfall Farm my Uncle John, one of Williams sons, remembers this and of William and Ellen living there and its also on the military death cert of one of his other sons, John William.

Well: I think this is the same William we've been tracking-
1891 Ancestry
Name: William Simcock
Age: 24
Estimated birth year: abt 1867
Relation: Son
Father's Name: James
Mother's Name: Harriet
Gender: Male
Where born: Horton, Staffordshire, England
Civil parish: Wolstanton
Ecclesiastical parish: Newchapel St James
Town: Thursfield
County/Island: Staffordshire
Country: England
Registration district: Wolstanton
Sub-registration district: Tunstall
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
James Simcock 57
Harriet Simcock 54
William Simcock 24-he's married now
Simeon Simcock 16
Joyce R Simcock 12
Harriet Simcock 10
Alfred Salt 16
Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 2157; Folio 59; Page 3; GSU roll: 6097267.

So where is Ellen and I think a son-John William born 1890?

Maureen

Edit-Sorry,Meg! That'll teach me to try to eat while posting!!

No, I'm not finding Ellen Simcock without a husband in 1891.

Pauline, did she have any children by then?

Oh "beep" you had the marriage cert all the time.

The witnesses don't help. But still nothing to suggest his mother was Emily, and if you see my previous post re 1881 and 1891 you will see that "father" James became a joint farmer-coal miner, and then a farmer.

So where does this Waterfall Farm come from Pauline?

Cos the farm he was on in 1891 is called Turnhurst Hall.

Note, William was married, but no wife living there.

So we now need Ellen living alone nearby.

Pauline.we will leave all the info as it is laid out for now and when you get the cert for Williams 's birth to show who his mother was then you can give me a pm.

I have bookmarked this thread to come back to.

David,
By the way I thought it was James's year of birth(1821) that was out as if you look at the 1881 census image you couldn't expect a woman of 57 like you think it says to have a baby of 7 months old.It is definitely 37 for Emily Simcock

1881 England Census
about James Simcock
Name: James Simcock
Age: 45
Estimated birth year: abt 1836
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Harriett
Gender: Male
Where born: Horton, Staffordshire, England

Civil parish: Stoke Upon Trent
County/Island: Staffordshire
Country: England

Street Address: Stanley Moor
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status: View image
Occupation: Farmer 23 Acres Coal Miner

Registration district: Stoke Upon Trent
Sub-registration district: Hanley
ED, institution, or vessel: 23
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
James Simcock 45 Farmer 23 acres, coal miner
Harriett Simcock 44
Enoch Simcock 17
William Simcock 14
Jesse Simcock 9
Simeon Simcock 6
Joyce Rose Simcock 2
Harriett Simcock



1891 England Census
about James Simcock
Name: James Simcock
Age: 57
Estimated birth year: abt 1834
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Harriet
Gender: Male
Where born: Horton, Staffordshire, England

Civil parish: Wolstanton
Ecclesiastical parish: Newchapel St James
Town: Thursfield
County/Island: Staffordshire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Wolstanton
Sub-registration district: Tunstall
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
James Simcock 57 Farmer
Harriet Simcock 54
William Simcock 24 MARRIED
Simeon Simcock 16
Joyce R Simcock 12
Harriet Simcock 10
Alfred Salt 16

Which might explain why your g father lived on a farm.

Where is William's wife, Ellen?