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Thanks Ozbird

That does look like his Christianing record.

Ok Janey

I think you are right, I have lost the plot.

What happened to Fred, Louisa and the kids that left William in a workhouse?

My Wife is still directly related to Fred and Louisa.

Fred and Jane not sure who they are but Sass and tailors easy mistake to make.

Thanks Joy
Now I know Fred Sass's full name and his dad it could be easier.

Fred #1 c1829 and Louisa were in Hull in 1861
Children Jane and Julius, born Hull, were in that census with them.

John/William was born in Hull c1866 (per censuses).

Fred #2 c1832 and Jane Smith married in 1864 in Sunderland.
They are in the 1871 census in Tynemouth.
There are no children with them.

John/William is in a workhouse in Hull in 1871.

Fred#2 c1832, married, is in Sunderland in 1881, no wife.

John/William is in a workhouse in Hull in 1881.


There just is no reason to think #1 and #2 are the same people! The dates of birth given are different, the children of #1 show no connection with #2, #2 marries in one place before the last child is born in the place where #1 was living -- they're different people leading parallel lives.

????
name: Johann Christian Friederich Saß
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 12 Sep 1828
baptism/christening place: Groß Lukow, Mecklenburg-Schwerin, Germany
father's name: Johann Friederich Saß
mother's name: Dorothea Friederika Schröder

indexing project (batch) number: I01383-4
system origin: Germany-EASy
source film number: 69175

http://www.cyndislist.com/germany.htm looks interesting.

I am confused now.

Fred and Jane married in 1864 in Sunderland

Marriages Sep 1864 (>99%)
Sass Frederick Sunderland 10a 563

William was in a workhouse in Hull in 1871.

Which Census record are you short of?

I am still convinced I have found the right marriage in Hull and William Sass was born in Hull.

It does make more sense that Fred and Lou died and that why William ended up in the workhouse.

Can there really be two Fred Sass's in Northern England!

You might like to see the image from ancestry as it has his signature.

I don't really think so, Simon. I think they're two different Freds.

If they are the same Fred, John/William's mother is Jane. Review the dates.

If you can find a birth for him, you're doing better than I.


Son John/William born in Hull 1866ish.

Fred #2 married Jane in Sunderland 1864.

Fred#2 and Jane are cohabiting in Tynemouth in 1871 (having married in Sunderland in 1864).
Why would their son be in a workhouse in Hull??

Janey
Don't worry William and John William are the same person.

The 1901 census records has written on it in where born Hull

Lesley? Where's Lesley??

Congrats on the find of course!

Eureka

Thanks Janey and Lesley - What a team

Look what I found Frederick and Louisa Marriage


groom's name: Johann Christian Friedrich Sasse
groom's birth date: 1829
groom's birthplace:
groom's age: 29
bride's name: Johanna Maria Louise Koeppen
bride's birth date: 1836
bride's birthplace:
bride's age: 22
marriage date: 09 Dec 1858
marriage place: Holy Trinity, Hull, York, England
groom's father's name: Johann Christian Friedrick Sasse
groom's mother's name:
bride's father's name: Heinrich Viezert Koeppen
bride's mother's name:
groom's race:
groom's marital status: Single
groom's previous wife's name:
bride's race:
bride's marital status: Single
bride's previous husband's name:
indexing project (batch) number: M01519-7
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1702266
reference number: Item 5 page 238

1911

SASS JOHN WILLIAM 1869 42 Prestwich Lancashire
SASS BEATRICE 1876 35
SASS BEATRICE MAY 1898 13
SASS WILLIAM ERNEST 1899 12
SASS JOHN HENRY 1901 10


John, William, John William ...

And William Ernest married as Ernest W?


Marriages Sep 1896
Hamer Beatrice Caroline Chorlton 8c 1480
Sass John William Chorlton 8c 1480

Simon, during that 15 minutes, I was posting a bunch of info -- have a read back over my two posts on p.1.


Why are you saying son William was in a workhouse now when you repeatedly said *John* before???


1871

Name: William Sass
Age: 5
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1866
Relation: Pauper
Where born: Hull, Yorkshire, England
Civil parish: Holy Trinity
Ecclesiastical parish: Holy Trinity
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Registration district: Hull
ED, institution, or vessel: Hull Workhouse


1881

Name: William Sass
Age: 15
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1866
Relation: Pauper Inmate (Pauper)
Where born: Hull, Yorkshire, England
Civil parish: Kingston-Upon-Hull
County/Island: Yorkshire
Street Address: "Hull Workhouse" Anlaby Road

Simon, I seriously think you have muddled two completely different Frederick Sass-s from Germany.


One born c1829 is a tailor in Hull, married to Louisa from Germany, who had children Jane, Julius and (?) John.

The other born c1832 is a tailor in Sunderland, married to Jane from South Shields.

If you're descended from John, the question is: which Frederick?

"Even though Frederick was alive in 1871 working in Tynmouth his youngest son John was aged 5 living in a workhouse with none of his family."

If I could find that census record, I might be able to take a guess -- depending on where it says John was born -- but I can't.

I would suspect that he was the son of Fred and Louisa of Hull, rather than Fred and Jane of Tynemouth, and that Fred and Louisa were deceased.

1861 Living and Working in Hull

Name: Frederick Sass
Age: 32
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1829
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Louisa
Gender: Male
Where born: Germany

Civil Parish: Hull Holy Trinity
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Registration district: Hull
Sub registration district: Humber
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Household schedule number: 1a

Frederick Sass 32
Jane Sass 2
Julius Sass 2 Mo
Louisa Sass 24

1881 Living and Working in Sunderland - Lodger 10 Havelock St is above

That is the right 1871 census Fredrick remarried in 1864



I will PM AoGG as you suggested, there are quite a few posts here that have nothing to do with Fred and Louisa.

I do know that Frederick Sass died in Sunderland in Dec 1885.

Still no idea where he was born or why his son William was left in Hull Workhouse.

Stella Sass is great grandaughter is still alive and is my mum in law.

Yes I do have some maddening ancestors.

Have you got any of the childrens birth certificate in order to show Louisa's maiden name.

I have this problem also............cannot find my rellies coming over from Germany and I only have 2 years to choose from as one child was born Germany and the youngest one born in England..

However I think the German name is spelt Sasse. (Mine have Schang and I found out its actually Schenck..........why oh why couldnt they read and write)

Lesley

Marriages Sep 1864 ?
Gent George Sunderland 10a 563
Rodley Emma Sunderland 10a 563
> Sass Frederick Sunderland 10a 563
? Smith Jane Sunderland 10a 563

Deaths Dec 1885 ?
Sass Frederick 54 Sunderland 10a 270


I haven't dug up a doppelganger too, have I?


If that is him, the marriage certificate would give you a father's name, hopefully.


You say:

Frederick Sass had 3 children all born in England
Jane 1859
Julius 1861
John 1867

Births Jun 1859
Sasse Jane Hull 9d 162
- nothing further in GRO index

Births Mar 1861
Sass Julius Hull 9d 171
- nothing further in GRO index

Did those two children die in infancy?

I see nothing for John. Can you show us the records?


You said Fred and Louisa were not together on any census records, but they're together as you described Fred in 1861 - ? --


1861

Name: Frederick Sass
Age: 32
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1829
Relation: Head
Occupation: Tailor Journeyman
Spouse's Name: Louisa Sass
Where born: Germany

Civil parish: Hull Holy Trinity

Frederick Sass 32
Louisa Sass 24 - born Hamburg
Jane Sass 2 - born Hull
Julius Sass 2 MO - born Hull


I'm not sure that the 1871 Frederick is the same as this 1861 Frederick. Are you?

If he is, then wife Louisa was deceased by 1864 (or otherwise sufficiently out of the picture that he chose to remarry), apparently.

If they're the same people, it rather looks to me that Louisa packed up Jane and Julius and went home, and Fred married Jane Smith and had son John Sass.

I actually think these may be two different Freds, if yours is supposed to be in Hull.

But I wonder -- are Fred and Jane in Sunderland really yours, and Fred and Louisa some other people who were in England only temporarily, had children Jane and Julius, and left?

Hoping to see the various records you have that I can't find etc.!


Note re post below: German name could be Saße (Sasse) or Saß (Sass) it seems. There are actors named Katrin Saß and Phillip Saß.

Simon, I just have to say .........








Siiiigh. You're beginning to rival me for idiot ancestors. ;)

If you PM AoGG and tell her specifically which posts contain info that isn't related, she will delete them for you. She did this to me in my Ponton thread and before the reams of unrelated Pontons drove me and any relation trying to read the thead nuts, I got her to excise them. Sometimes random people with similar names are useful (James Greenwood ...........), sometimes not.

Maybe she'd even edit to delete the great list of unrelated people in that 1881 census "household".


Also, it does help us if you reproduce the basics of census info rather than describing it. I can't find a Frederick Sass living and working as a tailor in 1871 in Tynemouth, and I'd like to see the actual census record. You never know what might be there that could be useful to other people looking.


So, searching for just Fred* born c1829 in Germany/Prussia, in Tynemouth in 1871 -- could this be him? Per Ancestry, but it does read Soss. (How's your German pronunciation? That would have been it.)


Name: Frederick Soss
Age: 40
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1831
Relation: Head
Occupation: Tailor
>> Spouse's Name: Jane Soss
Where born: Mecklen Corgh, Germany (it says Mecklenburgh)
Civil parish: Tynemouth

Frederick Soss 40
Jane Soss 33 - born Durham S Shields


No wife Louisa there. See what I mean about the records?

Ann
Interesting!
More Sass families in Lincolnshire not far from Hull.

I wonder if Frederick came to England with not just his wife.
They are not together on any census records though and they split up and dispersed not to be together again.