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1891 census - household transcription
Person: PAYNE, John
Address: Dagnal Street, St Albans


PAYNE, John Head Married M 36 1855 Brushmaker
Brentley
Essex VIEW
PAYNE, Rose Wife Married F 34 1857
St Albans
Hertfordshire VIEW
PAYNE, Lydia Daughter F 12 1879 Scholar
St Albans
Hertfordshire VIEW
PAYNE, Effie Daughter F 11 1880 Scholar
St Albans
Hertfordshire VIEW
PAYNE, John Son M 9 1882 Scholar
St Albans
Hertfordshire VIEW
PAYNE, Bobie Son M 5 1886 Scholar
St Albans
Hertfordshire VIEW
PAYNE, Silas Son M 4 1887
St Albans
Hertfordshire VIEW
WARBY, Charles Widower M 71 1820
St Albans
Hertfordshire VIEW

trying to find john in 1901

interesting as where his father comes from

1901 census - household transcription
Person: PAYNE, John
Address: High Street, Sandy
SPRING, John Head Married M 67 1834 Agricultural Labourer & Jobbing Gardener
Sandy
Bedfordshire VIEW
SPRING, Fanny Wife Married F 63 1838
Tempsford
Bedfordshire VIEW
CHAPMAN, Alfred Boarder Single M 24 1877 Blacksmith
West Dereham
Norfolk VIEW
PAYNE, John Boarder Single M 19 1882 Railway Porter
Clifton
Bedfordshire

1881 census - household transcription
Person: PAYNE, Jabez
Address: Henlow Station Rd, Henlow
PAYNE, William Head Married M 40 1841 Gardener
Henlow
Bedfordshire VIEW
PAYNE, Hannah Wife Married F 39 1842 Straw Plaiter
Henlow
Bedfordshire VIEW
PAYNE, Jabez Nephew Single M 20 1861 Cowman (Ag Lab)
Arlsey
Bedfordshire

1901 census - household transcription
Person: PAYNE, Jabez
Address: New Marford, Wheathampstead, Marford
PAYNE, Jabez Head Married M 40 1861 Gardener
Arlesley
Bedfordshire VIEW
PAYNE, Emily Wife Married F 40 1861
Henlow
Bedfordshire VIEW
PAYNE, Frank Son Single M 18 1883 Blacksmith
Clifton
Bedfordshire VIEW
PAYNE, Frederick Son Single M 16 1885 House Boy
Clifton
Bedfordshire VIEW
PAYNE, Arthur Son Single M 14 1887 Egg Packer
Clifton
Bedfordshire VIEW
PAYNE, Alfred Son Single M 12 1889 Newspaper Boy
Wheathampstead
Hertfordshire VIEW
PAYNE, Louisa Daughter Single F 10 1891
Wheathampstead
Hertfordshire VIEW
PAYNE, Ruth Daughter Single F 8 1893
Wheathampstead
Hertfordshire VIEW
PAYNE, Annie Daughter Single F 6 1895
Wheathampstead
Hertfordshire VIEW
PAYNE, Charles Son Single M 4 1897
Wheathampstead
Hertfordshire VIEW
PAYNE, Ellen Daughter Single F 3 1898
Wheathampstead
Hertfordshire VIEW
PAYNE, Emily Daughter Single F 1 1900
Wheathampstead
Hertfordshire

no john

second witness Charles also a gardener and fits with 1901

1911 census - household transcription
Person: WARBY, Charles
Address: Park Hall Garden Whittington Shropshire

BOWLES, Walter Head Single M 28 1883 Domestic Gardener Charminster Dorset VIEW
DIRVER, John Boarder Single M 25 1886 Domestic Gardener West Mathing Tacut VIEW
CLIFFORD, Howard Boarder Single M 24 1887 Domestic Gardener Bourton on the Water Glos VIEW
GOUGH, John Boarder Single M 23 1888 Domestic Gardener Welshpool Montgomery VIEW
WARBY, Charles Boarder Single M 19 1892 Domestic Gardener Hatfield Herts VIEW
EDWARDS, James Boarder Single M 20 1891 Domestic Gardener Gobower Salop VIEW
WOODHAIL, Sidney Boarder Single M 19 1892 Domestic Gardener Malpas Cheshire

her sister Alice

1911 census - household transcription
Person: WARBY, Alice
Address: Harpsfield Hall Hatfield
SINCLAIR, John Head Single M 62 1849 Farmer Stirlingshire Campsie Resident VIEW
SINCLAIR, Annie Sister Single F 58 1853 Stirlingshire Lorrance of Campsie Resident VIEW
SMITH, Margaret Alice Niece Single F 35 1876 Hertfordshire St Albans VIEW
SMITH, Annie Elizabeth Visitor Single F 37 1874 Hertfordshire St Albans VIEW
SMITH, Jessie Riddel Visitor Single F 40 1871 Derry London Derry Visitor VIEW
PARROTT, Rose Servant Single F 22 1889 Hertfordshire Hatfield VIEW
WARBY, Alice Servant Single F 22 1889 Hertfordshire Hatfield

1911 census - household transcription
Person: WARBY, Maude
Address: Fore Street Hatfield Hertfordshire
HORNE, Francis Head Married M 64 1847 Butcher St Pancras London VIEW
BULT, Kate Servant Single F 23 1888 Book Keeper Brixton Surrey VIEW
WARBY, Maude Servant Single F 25 1886 Domestic Servant Hatfield Herts VIEW
DAY, Frank Servant Single M 19 1892 Stockman Sandford St Martin Oxon


Maude is a witness at the marriage and fits in with Warby/Currell relationship

Marriages Dec 1883 (>99%)

Currell Sarah Hatfield 3a 635
WALBY John Hatfield 3a 635

another clue

1881 census - household transcription
Person: CURRELL, Sarah
Address: 8, Union Street, Luton
EWIN, Alfred Head Married M 28 1853 Solicitor
Chester
Cheshire VIEW
EWIN, Jessie Wife Married F 29 1852 Solicitor Wife
London
Middlesex VIEW
EWIN, Phyllis Maria Daughter Single F 0 1881
Luton
Bedfordshire VIEW
EWIN, Isaac England Father Married M 59 1822 Hosier
Gedney
Lincolnshire VIEW
EWIN, Frances Mother Married F 52 1829 Hosier Wife
Chester
Cheshire VIEW
CURRELL, Sarah Servant Single F 24 1857 Domestic Cook
Hatfield
Hertfordshire VIEW
FROST, Alice Servant Single F 16 1865 Domestic Housemaid
Newport Pagnell
Buckinghamshire

Janey

I was trying to find a Payne/Atkinson marriage but FreeBMD kept Cr*pping out on me!!

So we can discount that one then..... just weird, i have enough curve balls without that too.

I'm still awaiting the marriage cert of Ivy & Ernest. not that i think it'll help me!

There is Reginald the brother, i think i'll order his cert now.... maybe that'll give me a variation on the facts i have now?


Tracey x

Hey Janey

We're not really any further forward other than Viv managing to establish the whereabouts of the couple from the marriage on various census's.

It's very possible thats what he has done..... however what i am having a problem with is being certain the marriage and the births are the same couple.

Why 7 years before the birth of the first child? Ethel doesn't state a middle name (altho it's not essential she did) but i'd have liked it if she did!!

It's also possible John and Ethel lived in sin??


it's equally possible one or both have invented a child....or were even previously married!

Grrrr

Tracey x

Tracey - re your two Payne births on the same page

A few months ago I thought I'd inadvertently been hugely brilliant and discovered a twin of someone we were looking at. Same surname, same page, same mother's surname (actually surname and mother's surname were the same in both cases).

Turned out two unmarried women with the same surname who had had children in the local workhouse around the same time had registered them on the same day!

Could be this marriage:

Marriages Mar 1915
Payne William G Atkinson Pancras 1b 135

I doubt I have any chance of getting up to speed here ...

"Yes the marriage in 1911 states Gardener, but the birth cert in 1920 states Plate Layer."

marriage
17th April 1911, John Payne 29 Batch, Gardener, Hatfield, Father Jabez Payne Gardener.
married Ethel Marshall Warby 28, Spin, no occ, Hatfield, Father John Warby Gardener.

birth
Born 17 May 1920, 12 Spencer Road, St Pancras.
Mother Ethel Payne formerly Warby, father John Payne, Railway Platelayer.


Both fathers were gardeners, and we have "Jabey" there in 1911 being a gardener with his other adult son also being a gardener.

Isn't it possible that there was a family enterprise, and John was working temporarily in it at the time of the marriage? Laid off from railway job or such maybe? The family business would be a fallback possibly.

OK,

I know Payne is a common name.... but this one is a bit weird!

Births Sep 1918
>>>Payne Arthur E Atkinson Pancras 1b 142
Payne Ellen Payne Pancras 1b 52
Payne Kenneth E J _ Benson Pancras 1b 161
>>>Payne Reginald D Warby Pancras 1b 142

Tracey x

Hahaha, i live about 30 miles away from my mother, thats not far enough, yet too far also....

Well the weird thing is, he stayed int he same town and aparently struggled with his decision all his life! Didn't stop him from taking up with another woman, and living in the same town all his life!! The shock when he died and a tracing company found my mother....Unbelievable.

I was told at the time he had been caught on many occasions sitting outside our house watching myself and my sister playing in the garden....

It's a shame he carried on being a coward and didn't step forward....

The ironic thing is, he was a decorated major at El alamain in Egypt!!!

Crazy....xx

The B***d could have left them in London, at least they had friends there.
What a stinker !

My relationship with mother is not the most wonderful,but we do talk about many things,as long as its not my boys or the lack of love between her and I.
But Im 150 miles away,so I dont have to make an effort too often...

I know!

Sadly the family is so fragmented. When Ivy came back from the war with her husband they settled in London. They had 4 daughters, my mother was the only one who survived. When my mother was 11 her father decided London was not a good place to bring up a child and moved them lock stock and barrell to the West midlands......

..... sadly he dropped them off with their suitcases to 'park the car' that was the last time my mother and my nan saw him! ...he'd left them and hadn't the balls to say anything.

History is repetative as i do not speak with my mother either, infact i have not communicated with her for more than 5 years. It's a sorry tale of woe, indeed i am aware of the fact that Ivy did not have a happy childhood either....as my mother would always comment constantly how our relationship was just like her and her mother's and the mother before..

It seems a pattern the females are unable to break...until me!


T x

Well I really dont see any other.

Maybe they were never legally married....

Shame you have no idea when or where john and Ethel died cos with the name Payne being so "common"there are trillions to choose from !

We still need to attach the birth to the marriage.

T x

Mother SarahCurrell married stepfather John Warby yes..find a marriage ,nope.