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lol!!


glad to hear it Maureen!



and thanks from me Janey

........ I shall attempt to do as you say and shorten the bumpf even more than I already do!!



sylvia

Thanks,Janey!!!
And look,Sylvia,my computer didn't combust after all.

Maureen

Having read through - always entertaining (but Sylvia I do wish you would compress all that bumph when it comes from trees and such and delete the unnecessary bits) - I would just like to say that if I'd been involved in it all, I'd have said ditto to Maureen, Yesterday at 17:11.

Jeffrey, I think what I didn't see was an apology to the people who tried so hard to help you, who, you eventually conceded, were correct all along about the 1901, for your own ... how'd that go? ... smugness.

When someone asks for assistance and persists in ignoring and discounting what people have worked hard to find and know very well is correct, and coming up with far-fetched theories of their own instead, well ...

FYI, the "Hamberg" in 1901 would have come about like this.

Someone filled out the household schedule - a family member, a neighbour, or the enumerator in the absence of anyone able to do it.

A census worker then transferred the information from the household schedule (number 338, the number in the first left-hand column on the census image) to the page you see at Ancestry.

And that person misread "Flamberg" as "Hamberg". Quite obviously. (It's an error more commonly seen the other way around - for instance, John and Nancy Flamer in 1891 are plainly Hamer.)

People here like the ones in this thread really, really do know what they (we) are talking about.

I really couldn't believe I was reading you saying "she is related to Zalick (Jack) Flamberg, Freedman Flamberg's son" and still insisting that this person in 1901:

Name: Lilly Hamberg
- it's not Lilly, it's Selig, as I saw before reading your concession, because the first thing I did when I saw the 1901 reproduced here was *look at the image* - in fact I paid no attention to the transcription at all
Age: 13
Estimated birth year: abt 1888
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Monassch
Mother's Name: Janie

was not this person in 1911

HAMBERG JACK 1887 24

and the rest.


Sounds like you've picked up some skills here, anyway. An apology for not graciously accepting the assistance you were offered in a timely manner, and said without so much self-justification, would definitely not go astray.

Thank you for the advice ......... NOT


As I have very successfully been giving help and advice on these boards for more than 7 years, I think it boils down to thee and me have a personality conflict.


I found the information you gave less than helpful ................ you did not in fact ever mention that Menachem might possibly be an alternative name for Freedman. It was other people who found that out.

If you object to being told that, then hard lines.


You did indeed dismiss the suggestion that Hamburg might be connected .................. against the advice of most everyone else. Until, as you say, someone convinced you to take another look.

I wasn't even sure that the trees I found on ancestry were connected with you because of Menachem being the name used. It was only the fact that Julius and other children's names were mentioned that made me even consider the fact that there might be a connection




I spent several hours trying to help you, as I do for many other people.


If there is any lack of infomation on how to use these boards, then blame GR for not doing that .............. we the helpers do our best to give advice, and to let "newbies" know what information they should provide.


we all do the very best that we can ..................... as members using our own resources and subscriptions to other sites, and out of love of the research and hunting that is sometimes needed to find our ancestors.


Responses such as yours, both last night and today, sometimes make me regret that I do give that help

Sylvia

These postings have now taken an unfortunate turn.

Would you please read again all the postings. My first post was a plea to help me find the entry of Freedman Flamberg, Flamberg being the operative name in the 1901 Census. I had not shot down every suggestion. I believe quite naturally that I was entitled to dismiss the suggestion that the post of Hamberg was connected. I had given you 8 Frostie Mansions when it should have been Frostic Mansions, an honest mistake and to respond in capitals I found offensive.

It was only after consulting another member of the family that we thought that Hamberg might indeed be our great great grandfather,

I did not dismiss your suggestions in any form or fashion. I was presented with information that related to the 1911 Census and other website entries. I could not see what connection they had in finding the name Flamberg on the 1901 Census. I explained quite correctly that the entries by Sol Flamberg where inaccurate and incomplete. A fact of which you could not have possibly been aware.

Your input was not at all helpful. It was Barbara's lateral thinking and Quinsgran suggestion to look at the handwritten entry that convinced me to look again.

I would suggest that if are to continue to help enquirers you would do well to take the trouble to read the question, understand it and then give information that initially relates directly to the question. Then, if there is any further information that you require, ask for it in a friendly welcoming manner.

There are many newbies who are not aware of what is required to search the records and if you are to succeed in offering accurate and effective advice you would do well to be a little more sympathetic and less abrasive.

Jeffery

Jeffery

I admit I was feeling irritated with you

........ you shot down every suggestion that was made because it did not fit your facts.

You did not even give us the name of your gt grandfather as it would be found on the 1901 ............... you did not tell us that it might be Menachem. All you talked about was Freedman



As you have found .......... looking at the image is essential, the transcript is just the transcriber's interpretation of what he/she could read.


We have all learnt that


That is why we suggest that "newbies" do not take the transcript as the truth, but instead look at the image every time it is possible.


I feel myself duly whipped with a wet towel, a la your comment in your last post

"And to those you seem to make a habit of 'helping' enquirers I would suggest that you tread gently and refer to previous snippets of information in more moderated tones."




Always providing of course that you will take help in the manner in which it is offered without apparently dismissing it out of hand


As for this comment ....... I really do not understand where it comes from. We ALL know that typing in capitals is shouting ...... unless it is used for emphasis when used for one or two words.

" And to type in upper case is the height of bad manners as it signifies that you are shouting."

The only postings that I can see in upper case are either direct c&p from a site that carries its records in upper case, or where someone has used upper case to emphasise the name or names ......... to bring them to your attention.


I also note that you do not think the rest of us have been helpful in any form or fashion:

"Once again there have been one or two who have been extremely helpful and courteous, namely Barbara and Quinsgran and to them I am extremely grateful."


Rest assured, you will not be hearing from me or getting any help from me in the future.




sylvia

Maureen

I'm aware of my comments earlier and I've set the record straight. As I said I only looked at the typed transcript and from that there was no way could I confirm that what was written thereon was anything to do with Freedman Flamberg and family. I will confess that I am new to searching the records and did not see the significance of looking at anything else in spite of Quinsgran's earlier prompting.

I am very grateful to all who have helped me, but what I deplore is what I feel is a sense of smugness and irritation shown by some postings.

Regarding earlier posts referring to an email of 2001 from me on a site edited by Sol Flamberg. I have now retrieved a copy of that email and it was sent to Sol by me, but I am appalled that he published it as a source of information. That email was personal and I was merely setting out information that Sol Flamberg had given me so that it was in a more logical order. I was not in a position to verify the information in that email and had no intention of doing so at that time. It was left to Sol Flamberg to continue with his research.

I know this has nothing to do with any of you, but I think it goes to illustrate that in any recording great care should be taken that original sources are acknowledged and in particular where individuals are quoted as a source of information permission is obtained from them first before
publishing. And to those you seem to make a habit of 'helping' enquirers I would suggest that you tread gently and refer to previous snippets of information in more moderated tones. And to type in upper case is the height of bad manners as it signifies that you are shouting.

Once again there have been one or two who have been extremely helpful and courteous, namely Barbara and Quinsgran and to them I am extremely grateful.

Jeffery

I know I will regret this:
You wrote:
I have now found 8 Frostic Mansions and I can say without any shadow of doubt that the person living there under the name of Hamberg is not Freedman Flamberg. I have searched for all the derivatives of Flamberg and have come up with a blank.

And my friend Sylvia wrote:
Only a warning not to be too dogmatic

Maureen
(who still wants to slap you silly and use the F word)
Great work,Barb!

Quinsgran

I don't mean to ruffle feathers but one post seemed to me to display some degree of irritation and I took that as animosity.

I have looked at Gencircle and I am unable to access the particular information to which you refer. Please can you guide me in.

Jeff

Hi Jeffery
Just to wish you good luck with your research and please let me know if you require any further help.
Very best wishes
Barbara

Hi Jeffery.
Please dont feel there is hostility towards you. Members are really trying to help.

Check out GenCircles for yourself. Perhaps cousin Sol has added the information such as it is. (Non of your family are mentioned)

Sylvia

Let me explain. The tree that you have found by sollybear (Sol Flamberg) of which I am well aware has been produced from sources of information that were not entirely correct. He is a great great child of Freedman i.e. he is my cousin's son. I have seen www.flambergfamily.com.

The only information I supplied Sol Flamberg was that of my father Morris Flamberg and myself. The information provided by Sol has been superseded by input from various members of the Flamberg family and I'm not sure that I 'am happy with your remark that I'm decrying the information put on the site and remarks such as ' let Jeffery do with what I've found' are not particularly helpful'.

Quinsgran

I don't recall putting any information on Gene Circle and I am not using and never have used sollybear's email address. Where on earth did that come from?

It is regrettable that there seems to be a certain hostility towards me.

Based on information supplied on these posts I have now looked again at the copy of the handwritten census form for the 1901 Census and am happy that Monassch Hamberg is my great great grandfather Menasseh Flamberg. It was the typed transcript that threw me and after careful comparison with information that I have the names and dates of birth coincide. Judah is Julius, Lilly is Selig (Zalick), Tinha is Sinha (Simon), Hannah is Annie, Moses is Morris and Samue is Smauel.

I am grateful for Barbara for pointing me in the right direction and to a cousin of mine who confirmed that it was the man of whom I am looking.

Menasseh's age is shown as 50 in the 1901 Census which agrees with the age of 60 shown on the 1911 Census. I am aware that the age on the death certificate is an estimate. Sol Flamberg entered his date of birth as 1844 from information supplied to him at that time. As I have said the information on that site was to some extent hearsay and has not been corroborated. The research that other members of the family and myself have since carried out indicates that Sol Flamberg's family tree has inaccuracies and he is the first to admit that!

The only information with which my original post was concerned was that I was unable to find the record of Freedman Flamberg on the 1901 Census. I had various first names and surnames and the possible address, although I had Frostie and not Frostic. The former spelling was taken from a birth certificate which I admit did not seem clear to me.

Perhaps I should have taken Qinsgran' advice given in his posting 15 January 2010 00.56, earlier. It would have saved a lot of additional postings, some of which were helpful and others not so!

Jeffery

Quinsgran


haven't looked on GenCircle

............... I had found this tree on ancestry, with information that Jeffrey seems to have supplied, while decrying it in a posting on this thread!


at the same time I found the information on familysearch


Let Jeffrey do what he will with what I have found!




sylvia

Sylvia.

Have you ever looked at GenCircles. Member has Flamberg tree put there in 2001 but very little on it and non of the names mentioned here.

However the member is using sollybear as e mail address

from www.familysearch.org

Individual Record FamilySearch™ Pedigree Resource File



Menachem Flamberg Compact Disc #56 Pin #105585 Pedigree
Sex: M

Event(s)
Birth: 1844


Death: 14 Jan 1937


Burial:

Edmonton Cemetary, London

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Parents

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Marriage(s)
Spouse: Debora Flamberg Disc #56 Pin #105620
Marriage:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Other Marriage Event(s)
Divorce:


Divorce:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Notes and Sources
Notes: None
Sources: Available on CD-ROM Disc# 56

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Submitter
Sol FLAMBERG
57 Kendal Drive Gatley, Cheadle, Cheshire, SK8 4QJ, United Kingdom

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Submission Search: 1209366-0213103123337
URL: http://www.flambergfamily.com
CD-ROM: Pedigree Resource File - Compact Disc #56
CD-ROM Features: Pedigree View, Family View, Individual View, Reports, Downloadable GEDCOM files, Notes and Sources.
Order Pedigree Resource File CD-ROMS

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

About FamilySearch Pedigree Resource File
The Pedigree Resource File is a new lineage linked database of records available on compact disc containing family history records submitted by individuals through FamilySearch Internet Genealogy Service. Family information is organized in family groups and pedigrees and includes submitted notes and sources. Many charts and reports can be printed from this data. Each disc contains about 1.1 million names. With the publication of every five discs, a master index for those discs will be published and packaged with that set of discs. With the publication of every 25 discs, a master index for those discs will also be published and packaged with that volume of discs. Discs may be purchased as sets or volumes.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please Note
Submitter information is provided to help in the coordination of personal family history research. Use of this information for any other purpose, including marketing, advertising, or commercial solicitation, is strictly prohibited.




- - - - - - - - - -


always consider the fact that he MIGHT have lied about his age on the 1911 Census



and that the information on a death certificate is only as good as the informant knows .... if the informant had been told that Menachem was 20 or so years younger than he really was, then that is the age put on the certificate.


A birth certificate does not have to be shown to the Registrar to prove the age of the deceased.



Only a warning not to be too dogmatic!


Most of us have ancestors who lied about their age ............... and he was a foreigner in another country, possibly a refugee from progroms, probably somwehat scared, and he might well ahv elied about his age when entering the country believing that a much older man might not be allowed.



Just a thought for you




sylvia

It looks as though you might have supplied the information on Menachem!


from that tree:-


Flamberg Family Tree

Owner: sollybear

Menachem Flamberg

Birth
1844
in Kamfke (Warsaw), Russia

Death
14 Jan 1937

Parents & Siblings

Moshe Mordechie ()

No Mother

Timeline

1844
Birth
Kamfke (Warsaw), Russia

1 source citation :- Jeffrey Beecham Email 2001



sylvia

Hello Barbara

I have contacted Michelle Carpenter and she is related to Zalick (Jack) Flamberg, Freedman Flamberg's son through, I think, her grandmother, Miriam Beaver who married Jack.

She is unable to give me anymore information regarding Freedman.

Thanks anyway.

Hello Sylvia

Yes, there are related. Julius is my grandfather. Freedman married firstly in Poland to whom we do not know and they had one child, Julius born in Poland. After his wife died he married again in Poland to Deborah and the children of this marriage were Zalick(Jack) born in Poland, Simon James (Jim) born in Poland, Annie born on the boat bringing them to the UK in 1893, Morris, Samuel and Esther all born in England.

I don't know who compiled the tree but it does not agreed with the information that I have gained official records and family recollections. One point is that Menachem (Freedman) was not born in 1844 making him 93 when he died in 1937. On the 1911 Census his age is shown as 60. Also his age is shown on his death certificate in 1937 as 77. The ages of 93 and 77 were estimates taken from family members who did not have access to the 1911 Census.

Thanks anyway.

Nicola

Many thanks for that information, I'll contact them.

Jeff

are these your family??


Public Family Trees on ancestry.co.uk



Matches 1–2 of 2 Sorted By Relevance


Flamberg Family Tree
Public Member Tree
2 sources
Julius Flamberg
Birth: 1882 - Poland
Death: 1933 - London, England
Marriage: 7 Feb 1909
Spouse: Rachel Kolinsky

F: Menachem Flamberg

M: Unknown


Show siblings

Half siblings

Zalick Flamberg

Living Flamberg

Living Flamberg

Living Flamberg

Simon James Flamberg
1891 – 1983

Esther Flamberg
1901 –





lambert Family Tree
Public Member Tree
Unsourced
Jack Zalick Flamberg
Birth: 1890
Death: / - London


F: Monash Flamberg

M: Debora



The first tree is particularly interesting in that it implies that Julius had a different mother from the other children

Parents of the other children are:-

Menachem Flamberg
1844 – 1937

Debora Yitzak
1870 – 1936





sylvia

Hi Jeffery
Have you looked on search trees at the top of the page
If not give it a try
Just put in the name Flamberg and then search there is a person on there called Michelle who has many of you names on her tree.
Sorry if you have already tried this
Regards
Barbara

Jeffery

I understood the 1911 census was the first census people had to fill in themselves if they could. That is why its invaluable to look at the census image to see their handwriting.

Earlier census was filled in by the enumerator. Accents etc made it difficult to understand the correct names and so mistakes are made.

Flamberg with an accent could easily be Hamberg

Then the enumerators writing, faded paper has sometimes made it difficult for the transcribers to read hence mistranscriptions occur