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Thank you Derek for replying, I'll look forward to hearing from you sometime in the future when you've fully recovered which I hope is very soon.

All the best

Kath

hi
Hope you are feeling better than you did at xmas Derek.
What do you think i need to do have put George down on tree with listing his father as George anything more re what you were thinking or do you think will have to call it with George?
Thanks once again
Sharon

Sharon.....I think you have to do just that.........we have a baptism at Cromford..we have a marriage certificate in Rotherham.one shows his mother Sarah..the other his father as George. Both George's are Iron moulders............this much is fact.....stick with it........

..you can drive yourself, and me! crazy with the permutations surrounding Sarah Turner and george Taylor...for instance George Taylor and Sarah are shown as the parents of George and MARIA.(Taylor).....1841 AND 1851..........Maria Taylor and George Turner were baptised on the same day at Cromford 1843...(.but George Taylor jnr doesn't exist in the Pr's.)....both with mother Sarah..but in Maria's case George and Sarah..... but George taylor is a Coppersmith not an Ironmoulder.....

We have an unbroken history for George Turner 1843 Cromford..married to Hannah..living succcessively in Kimberworth Yorkshire..Erith Kent.and Rotherham.......the Kent bit needn't bother you..he went for work..

.....what happened earlier is the stuff of fantasy........

George was born illegitimately so Sarah..FACT..did she then marry the father of the baby, and the name mis-spelt..( on two different Censuses? i think not)

George was born illegitimately to Sarah..FACT......did he decide that whoever
His father was HE was going to be a Turner.......perhaps he re-inforced that by insisting on his marriage Certificate that his father was GEORGE TURNER Ironmoulder!! ..It must be true because I said so!!

(My own mother was born illegitimately..and on her marriage Certificate she invented a father David James Gregson..Soldier Deceased.....caused me no end of trouble in mu research!)

So!! go with what you've got........you've got everything after..the before has to stay in the mists of barely literate enumerators. hearsay, and maybe downright lies.........

Derek.

Thanks so much for your all hard work and headache i maybe caused you but going to go with what you say as you say he went with his mother surname. :-D :-)
Sharon :-D

Hi Eric its Sandie again, sorry to be a pain but please could you fill me in with any more about the Shipleys? As I said in an earlier post, the illegitimate son of Gladys, John Henry was my father and we just cannot find out anything about our Grandfather.Any info you could give at all would be great.It is really intriguing to find out more of this scandal.Many thanks, Sandie.

Hello Sandie.........DEREK..not Eric.......well the scandal was the illegitimate birth of John Henry Shipley 20.01.1922 to an umarried Gladys Shipley...........there is a Civil registraion of the birth in Chesterfield Registration District in 1st Quarter 1922.and the only way you'll ever know the name of John Henry's father is if you order the Birth certificate.......on which it is almost certain there will be no father's name.........if she was a really really naughty girl..she may not even have known the father's name...............

My own mother was illegitimate, born at almost exactly the same time......never knew her father..and on her marriage certificate to my father..invented father...."David james gregson Soldier Deceased"....was a common get out...to say your father was deceased......
So you have two options..only two..both of which may be fruitless..

who did Gladys say the father was on John Henry's Birth certificate....

who did John henry say his father was on his marriage certificate to Kathleen Blackburn????

I can tell you everything you need to know about the Shipley's up to 1911..and same about the Blackburns.......but for the rest need you to actually purchase certificates..............in my experience, that could well be a waste of time and money........there are some things in this lark that you will never find out......particularly if young Gladys was even more flighty than we know!

In 1911 Gladys was living with her family at 25 Mountcastle Street Newbold...and its still there.as you can see if you use the Google facility...

Derek.

Hi Derek,

Sorry to hear you have not been well, i hope your health is still improving. I need your help again please.

I have recently found out why my paternal great grandparents were not living together after 1881, a newspaper article in Oct 1886 (ah i love a scandal).
A court case between William Shipley, his wife Alice nee Green and John Smith, who it says is her uncle. I think this is John Snape Smith.


This is what i have,

1901..Alice is housekeeper to John Smith in Derby, both die before 1911

1891 John Taupe(Snape) Smith is living with his son John O Smith

1881..William Shipley`s unmarried sister Sarah is housekeeper to John S Smith in Heage

1871, 1861 and 1851 John Smith is in Manchester Lancashire


Alice`s parents were,

Francis Green b.1803 Allestree and MARY SMITH b.? married 24 Apr 1826 Saint Edmunds Allestree

Children all baptised at St Edmunds Allestree Hannah 1828, Alice 1829 and Emma 1831, no sight of Francis or Mary after this.


John Snape Smith`s parents were,

John Smith and Anne Snape married 16 Nov 1812 St Alkmunds church Derby

Children baptised at St Alkmunds, Census list all born Darley Abbey.

Thomas 14 Sept 1813

Julia 15 Feb 1815

Hannah 2 Apr 1816

John Snape Smith 27 July 1818

But where is Alices mother Mary ??? can you help find her please

Appreciate any help

Sylvia(in Oz)

Hi Sylvia..Happy New Year to you...........I think that you have a problem.......both Francis and mary disappear before the 1841 census..but we know they were alive in 1831.........
My suggestion is that they both died before 1837..becasue their desthsdo not appear with any certainty on BMD's............plenty of Greens, both john and mary...but being such a common name..virtually untraceable...........

I'll look in the Derby parish records next time i go to matlock.....but unless any records include age at Death..which I doubt..I don't think we'll find them

But you know me..I'll try!!


Derek.

Hi DEREK!, so sorry about that.Thanks so much for the info.I would really appreciate anything at all you can tell me about the Shipleys and Blackburns Thanks once again,regards Sandie.

Hi Sylvia and Derek,

Alices mother died in Darley abbey and was buried on the 2/1/1837 aged 30.
Alices father Francis died in Darley abbey and was buried on the 24/3/1836 aged 32.

meercat.

Meercat!!! xxx Happy New year !!......and thanks so much for getting me out of trouble!..will love you forever!.

Derek.

meercat is an absolute gem :-)

Hello Joy .....and so are you.....I've got such good pals on here. xx

Derek

Hi Derek and Meercat,

Happy new year to you both, thank you for those burials, it makes sense they were buried in Darley Abbey as Hannah, Alice and Emma are there with William Shipleys maternal grandfather and Williams sister Sarah in 1841. William and Sarah were also orphans.

Mary being 30 when buried poses another question, her baptism must be before the John Smith and Anne Snape marriage in 1812, so was John Smith married previously, if so who is Mary`s mother?

Appreciate your help

Sylvia (in Oz)

Happy new year Derek,Sylvia and my friend Joy.
I hope you are feeling well Derek.

There is another birth for Francis and Mary Green in Darley abbey.
Mary Ann baptised 11/5/1834 and May Anns burial 9/12/1834 aged 7 months.

Meercat,

Thank you so much Meercat, it looks like Francis Green and family moved from Allestree to Darley Abbey sometime between 1831 and 1834, he was a cotton spinner, so maybe closer to the mill.


I`m also looking for the burial of William Shipley born 30 Jan 1806, baptised 10 Feb 1806 Belper and Heage. Married Dinah Sowter 1 Nov 1824 St Alkmunds Derby. Occupation was a framework knitter. Possibly died between 1831 and 1838 in Darley Abbey. I have a death cert for a Diana Shipley who died 24 Feb 1838 St Peters workhouse as a widow, who i think is possibly Dinah.

Appreciate your help.

Sylvia (in Oz)

I used to be able to spit the distance between Allestree and Darley abbey!!!!!!!!!!lololol..........they are actually very very close together...certainly walking distance.

Derek.

lolol @ Dereks spitting distance.

I`m hopeless at distances long or short lol

Sylvia (in Oz)

There is no burial for a William Shipley in Darley Abbey or Allestree.

I am a lady so I can't spit that far it's more like a hop, skip and a jump for me
over Duffield Road.

Meercat.

Thank you for looking Meercat, the children were born in Belper...Sarah Abt 1828 and William Abt 1830, but were baptised in Darley Abbey as adults in 1844

In 1841 Sarah is with her maternal grandfather George Sowter and William is in the Osmaston Road workhouse, i have looked on and off over the last few years for William Shipley Snr with no luck.

Sylvia (in Oz)