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Hello again Lisa..don't take Joseph off his parents!!......he would simply have left home and gone off to work.....if you look for him specifically on the later census..I'm sure you'll find him..........unless he died.......but it would be a mistake to remove him...he was definitely there in 1841.....

John and Isabella later moved to Nottingham......

Don't waste your time going to matlock until i have sorted more things out.....no point if you don't know what you're looking for.
You no longer have a confusion..you ask me..and i remove it:_
One thing is certain..John Stanyard born in Leicestershire..went off looking for work.....met and married Isabella..then later moved to Nottingham.....a very common story..you went to where the work was.

AS for the later Denman stuff.I'll get onto it.

Derek.

Hello again Chrissie..thank you for your input and for you recommendation......I've seen the pentrich baptism..and others...but Stephens information appears to have been corrupted by one of the many Clowns on here!!
The baptism of samuel Barnes..whichever one..is irelevant until we find out where atephen got his info from......Mary bateman and Samuel barnes???? i don't think so!

Derek.

Thanks Derek.

I'll stay where I am at the moment. :)

I'll hear from you soon. Or you could PM me with information :) xxx

Good morning Susan........I'm hoping that you are not rejecting my work, just because i messed up on Charles 1729....I suppose you have never been absolutely sure that we have the right James Gregson (1815) in the first place..which would be sad.
Anyway, if we DO have James 1815..on the certificate, when you get it, I have now sorted the complete line back to 1667...........let me know..and if we do not have the right James........we'll just start all over again....

Derek.

Hello Lisa............ok, lets get John Stubbings out of the way first.

John Stubbings baptised at Whitwell/Cresswell 31.03.1827 (Son of John stubbings and Elizabeth)..married Mary Ann Garton in Belper registration District Derby (civil registration,which mean the wedding would have taken place anywehere in quite a wide area)...registered 4Q 1868........

Parents of Mary Ann Garton were Thomas and Sarah (nee Green) of Darley Abbey Derby..who married in 1838..Darley Abbey and Allestree are virtually the same place......

Curious thing is that John Stubbings and his wife never appear on the same census..They managed to have one child LLewelyn in 1870..who stayed with his mother till at least 1891..

John Stubbings was a shoemaker.cordwainer who moved around with his job...as far apart as Cresswell and Sheffield.

By 1881 he was dead..with Mary Ann Subbings and her son, in lodgings on both the 1881 and 1891 as a widow.

That's the bare bones of the story..if you want details or any more..let me know

I do have quite a lot of Notts records....in fact I am working on a Denman family from Southwell at this moment.......I will investigate your Stanyard/Denman problem.........but such a name change usually arrives from the mother's maiden name..and is often retained by the child because it was the name he/she was baptised with..i.e born before wedlock.......not always..but usually.....I will find out! no worries!

Friday..I now have the full and complets story of the Denmans and the Stanyards......but no explanation of why Freddie boy decided to change his name to Denman..except that his father leonard dumped him in Loughborough Workhouse for the first few years of his life........if you don't already know the story..just ask.....
Do you have a tree on Ancestry??
PS..are you a Beeby..or related to such..by any chance??????
Derek.

Hi thanks for the information and its interesting! Do you know where John stubbings's father come from?

Will write it down and put it into ancestry later as I am away for the overnight down to Birmingham.

Do let me know what is happening with stanyard/denman.

Thanks xx

Good Morning Derek........

Please dont think I am rejecting the information that you have given me..........I am very grateful for your help and would certainly not dismiss it..........whilst compiling my tree I am routinely trying to confirm my direct line with copy certs (where I can) so I can be sure it is absolutely accurate for future generations.....just in case anybody is interested............

I am ordering the certs just to be doubly sure I have the right folks as they are my direct line and would do it anyway..........no reflection on any information from you.

Marriage cert of James and Mary Ann Twigg should confirm parents and age of James..... but only if it doesn't just say "of full age"..........?????? I will let you know as soon as I get the information

One thing you could help me with.........if you could???? Please pretty please
Where were 1884 Longford births registered.........Ashbourne, Wolstanton, Derby or someother place..............I am a bit confused due to boundary changes !!!!!!

Many Thanks for you help so far.........I am sure we sort this wayward family eventually .......

Susan :-)

Hello Susan..I think that Ashbourne has always been to registration District for Longford.......

As an example I took MARTHA CHARLOTTE GREGSON out of the Longford PR's...baptised 28.11.1886..daughter of Samuel and Grace......

Looking at the Civil registration.that only gives a list.......the birth was registered at Ashbourne.........

..and you're right..the marriage certificate will give James' age......

Try not to order your certs from Ancestry BMD's..they are enormously expensive..........I only pay £10 for mine by downloading the application form from the net....not sure that works for Derbyshire though...I'll have a look..

Derek.

Good Afternoon Derek........

Many thanks for your message........I suspected that Longford births had always been registered in Ashbourne but I am having an awful problem in finding my great grandfather JAMES RUTLANDS civil birth registration........not helped by the varying birth dates ???? Sorry to bring the Rutlands up again........

If you have a few minutes to spare could you check the derbyshire records for me for a baptism ???

I have confirmed his first marriage in 1906 and the cert states he was 21, therefore born 1883...........2nd marriage shows he was 67, born 1885 and death cert shows him as 82 in 1965, born 1883.......???
Have only been only been able to find one James Rutland registered Wolstanton, in 1885 but a couple of James Rutlands in Belper 1883 and Burton 1886... ....GG Pa's name was James William........they must have used the same names constantly to drive us mad........or they were hiding something..!!!!
Not sure whether to go ahead and order Wolstanton cert on a whim...............

Have ordered other certs direct from GRO (£9.25 each) as ancestry tooooooooo expensive.

Many Thanks for your help.
Susan.

PS. I am sure you know about this.....but just found it and really useful......
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/places/regindex2-1.pdf

PPS Please dont worry if you dont have time to look, I am sure I have the right family, its only to complete my direct line........

Hello Susan.........did he marry Gentila Clarissa Fearn at Burton on trent district 1906???

If so..1911 has him born Longford..(he was not baptised there as far as i can see)..aged 26...but he is living at Burton.......perhaps Gentils came from Burton???

He was married as James William..and is entered with that name on the 1911

1891 he is living at home with his parents WILLIAM and MARY (Mary 1864 birth place shown as Overseal!!!!...so its the right one..)...living at Hartshead ,THURCASTON...next village to Hollington in the parish or Longford...He has a brother John T (1884...younger than JW so JW must be 1883) Emma and Joe............

1901 he is with brother Joe in the NEILD household at Hollington.......born Thurcaston..which is ok..

You can wipe out the 1887 James W at lullington.who has the wrong parents..

In fact as far as i can see JW 1883..is the only one who has the right parents. I say "as far as i can see" cos i ain't yet done the James Rutlands....

Hope this helps..it doesn't anser the question 100%...but......
Sorry..THURCASTON should read THURVASTON...on all records......Thurcaston is in leicestershire...
Thurvaston is three miles from longford....but strangely, in the Parish of Sutton on the Hill!......Wolstanton is in Stoke on Trent!!

EDIT 18.50. It occurs to me that William Rutland born in Longford 1843....lived his life up to and including 1911 in Longford..........except on the 1881 census..when he seems to have disappeared......about the time that James William and the others were born..before 1891........why???????..and where did they go... the children allegedly born at Longford....none of them baptised there...........I'm going to try and find a Birth registration for the others......
FURTHER EDIT........ok..you may or may not make something of this..you have a Wolstanton option AMJ 1885 for JW (wolstanton is in Stoke-on-Trent.......

There a registration for John Rutland Stoke on trent 1883

There is a registration for John Rutland and for a Joe Rutland in Burton on trent AMJ 1889...........but all four children are shown as being born firmly in the Longford/Thurvaston/Sharrow Hall area.............was William senior travelling about the place in his Farm |labourer work???????


Derek.

Hi Derek.........Thanks for getting back so quickly.

Yes, the James that married Gentilla Clarissa, also known as Tilly in 1906 is the one I am looking for. Tilly was born in Burton in 1884.....The couple were married at the Wesleyan Methodist Chapel in Burton. Tilly's family were methodist as far as I am aware...
Tilly passed away in 1947 and James remarried in 1952 at Burton Register Office. He died in October 1965 in Burton.

I did consider that perhaps James was baptised in a non-conformist church but there should still be a civil registration for his birth....

Am sure I have the correct family as James brother, John T born 1887 was married in 1907. His address was the same as that given on James marriage cert to Tilly Fearn in 1906............Broadway Street, Burton
John T Rutland was born July 1887 at Sharrow Hall, Oleston and Thurvaston and his birth was registered at Burton, sub district of Tutbury.......

I have no idea where William James was in 1881 as I cant find him on the census but he married Mary Grigson / Gregson on 24 March 1884 at St Lawrence Church, Buddulph. At the time they were both resident at Dirty Lane ????
WJ birth cert shows he was born in Thurvaston Parish on 26 July 1844 son of William Rutland and Emma Clark nee Stone.

Thanks for looking for me
Susan

Susan..stranger and stranger..so William was swanning around Stoke on Trent and burton on trent......yet he was back on home soil by 1891..with a host more children ..Joseph 1889 and Florence 1892..........both presumably baptised..or not..the same as the earlier ones......BUT..according to the Longford parish records...three of the children who appear on the 1901 and 1911 Census..were baptised at Longford as follows....
Arthur 24.02.1895
Ada Hannah 29.11.1896
Susan Violet 10.12.1899
Alfred C born 02.02.1901 baptised 10.03.1901......

In 1881..Mary Ann Gregson was a servant at Litchurch in derbyshire.....aged 15..must have been a bit of a whirlwind for her in the 1880's married 1884 and 10 children by 1901..WOW!!..

Derek

Susan.in addition to my message below, this is.last one of the night........I suspect you know a great deal more than you're letting on...........but in case you don't.....Tilly Rutland 06.10.1947 aged 63 and James William Rutland 01.11.1965 aged 82 are buried in he same grave at Stapenhill Burton on Trent..along with George and Louisa Fearn..Tilly's parents........

Oh..by the way..its Emma Stone (widow) nee Clarke....not the other way round..that William rutland married

1841 \census has EMMA STONE widow with her two children Emma and Joseph living at Longford......

EMMA CLARKE 1805 (Census says Stapenhill..but not in PR's which I have) Longford PR's say Sutton on the Hill..married Thomas Stone son of John..at Longford 15.10.1835.

They had two children both baptised Longford......Joseph 22.08.1834..and Emma 14.09.1836 baptised 09.10.1836..

Thomas Stone buried at Longford 19.08.1840..cause of death..wait for it !!!.."Insanity by a thorn having penetrated the brain through the eye"

Hence Emma Stone being a widow on the 1841 census......before she married William Rutland....

Derek.

Hi Derek.........thanks for your message.

Did know about JW burial in Stapenhill along with Tilly and her folks.
Visited Burton a while ago and went to cemetery office and they gave me details. Until then didn't even know Tillys parents were Fearns.

Thanks for info about Thomas Stone.........Was not aware when Emma's first husband passed away or what he died off....another obscure malady..........where did they get them from !!!!!!!!

Was trying to ask around family yesterday for any info relating to JW birth place but no luck........ My father has no idea, he only remembers his g.g.parents and g.parents in Burton.......
One of JW's daughters is still with us but unfortunately knows very little about where the family come from.......however I am very sure I have the correct family as I showed her some pictures on a******y tree of JW siblings and she was able to identify them as her cousins and give me their names.......

I guess I will need to accept that I may never be able to find his birth registration........however..........I will take a chance and order the Wolstanton birth cert..........seems his father was on the move quite a bit so could be the right one.....dont really like buying certs on a whim but I think this time I will give it a go... will let you know if its the correct one when it arrives........

Thank you taking the time to look for me.........
Susan :-)

Hello Derek
Trying to find any information on Ancestors of Sophia Brassington c1791 of Shirland Can you help?
Thank you

Hi Rockfish.....well..I don't know where you got your information from, but we're struggling.

If she was baptised in the Anglican Church.i wasn't at Shirland.....I have the Pr's for Shirland and there is no Brassington presence in Baptisms marriages or Burials after 1699...There are five baptisms only....I send them to you in case they may match up somewhere....but they're 100 years too early!
Esau and jacob Brassington..13.10.1684
Marina Brassington dr of Thomas 01.03.1696
Sarah Brassington dr. of James 10.04.1699
Thomas brassington son of Thomas and Rosamund 25.02.1699

I have found a birth and baptism for SOPHIA BRASSINGTON born 20.09.1790..baptised 17.10.1790..at Pentrich/Ripley..daughter of Thomas Brassington. (Source PR's)

that's it for the moment.....there are some Brassingtons at Chelmrton and some at St. Werburghs Derby....Youlgreave South Wingfield.

Did she marry William Ludlam?????......I have a marriage 23.02.1812 at Duffield (close by Pentrich!!!).(Source PR's.).............Ancestry trees...not always reliable have her born Ripley 1791...

I'll have a sniff around for a bit.

Derek.

Hi Derek
Can you help me please? I'm looking for any information for a Samuel Barnes (my Great Grandfather x3) born C1838 Possibly Frichley, Derbyshire. The information I have is: Married to Mary Wright C1846. Children: Martha, Annie, Agnes, Mary & John. As always your help is gratefully appreciated any information you can find. Thank you

Hi Derek ...........Its me again the bane of your life......!!!!!!!

Was just about the order the Wolstanton cert for James W Rutland..........then it occurred to me if JW was born in 1883 as indicated by his death cert and lst marriage cert there may have been some naughtiness going on.............
His folks William J and Mary were married in March 1884 in Biddulph........

Have found a birth for James Gregson born 1883 in Ashbourne, Oct,Nov,Dec Qtr............I wonder if he was registered as Gregson before they wed ??????

Would appreciate your thoughts.
Susan :-S

It had already occurred to me that naughtiness had been going on..born 1883 marries 1884.......s'obvious innit!!!.I'll see what i can find out about the James Gregson Birth..Ashbourne District could mean Longford!!
EDIT.......Nope..the James Gregson baptism 30.12.1883 at Longford was to Samuel and Grace........who we have already met!!
Derek.

Thanks Derek............Oh Well, back to the drawing board.......I'll keep looking.:-(
Thank you for checking
Susan