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Hi Derek
Further to my previous message.........have now had a fair chunk of time to look at the info you kindly gave me......Sorry its took so long.........lifes pretty manic just recently.

Dont quite know what the old devil Charles Gregson was made of..........he certainly had some stamina.....would love to know the whole story.......with him, Mary Rowbotham and anybody else who may have come into contact with him.......Cant believe the age gap with the children.....

Am really happy with the details of the Gregsons you were able to give me and am sure we have the correct Mary Ann, daughter of James and Mary..........
have a couple of questions if you don’t mind then I’ll leave you in peace..........for a while at least !!!!
As Mary Ann was born / baptised at Overseal, can I safely assume it was a “one off” and that the rest of the brood were all born / baptised in Longford ? I have her siblings as

Charles 1839
Sarah Ann 1840
John 1842
William 1844
Joseph 1854
Alfred 1856 and
Mary Ann 1866

Are these correct? there seem to be some large gaps between some births.......perhaps James was giving his wife a rest....!!! or perhaps he was trying to compete with his father Charles......lol ;-)

Susan

Hi Derek, can you help me again please,

Can you check your discs to see if you can find marriages for the following:

Jane Waine born c1792 Stanton in the Peak
Mary Waine born c1794 "
Elizabeth Waine born c1796 "

Their parents and brother John were married at Youlgreave so I'm hoping they were too.

Thank you

Chrissie

Hello Derek
I am trying to find any information [ parents possibly ] of Anthony Gregory c1791 South Wingfield or Parkhead area .Any news would be helpful
many Thanks

Hello Rockfish.can't find anything for Anthony Gregory at South Wingfield..and nothing anywhere else within 10 years of the date you give me......do you know anything at all about him that might help????

I have an Anthony gregory at NORTH WINGFIELD 1802 who married 1830........

Derek.

Hello Chrissie............your births at Stanton were all baptised at Youlgreave to JOHN WAINE and MARY nee Rowland.as you say JOHN was married there 05.11.1822 to Sarah Stevenson......

MARY Waine married John Siddall 30.10.1815........but she was the only one

Having looked around a bit I offer two possibilities:-

JANE WAINE married 28.06.1819 Winster to Benjamin Durden
JANE WAINE married 29.03.1819 Baslow to Joseph Barker.

In case you don't have the baptism dates for the children of John and Mary at Youlgreave:-

Rebekah 12.12.1790 (died 10.02.1806)
Jane 06.05.1792
Mary 23.02.1794
Elizabeth 17.051796
Ellin 08.04.1798 (buried 10.05.1799)
John 16.02.1800

There is also a Jemima Waine who married William Fentam at Youlgreave 22.01.1822.

Stanton in the peak was known as Stanton by Youlgreave and did not become a separate parish till 1870........

Derek.

Hello Susan.............yep..the Overseal birth was a one-off.......for some reason james and Mary were in Overseal....health reasons???? we know that mary died there..and there was something of a history of tragedy in the family.
Here are the children..some baptisma..haven't found them al....

Sarah ann 1840
John 1842
William 1844
CHARLES 1849
Simeon 29.08.1854..died 11.11.1854
Joseph 29.08.1854
Alfred 26.07.1857
Martha Jane 12.02.1860 died 16.02.1860
and Mary Ann at Overseal 1866 a birth which I suggest at least contributed to the death of her mother.....it looks very much as though her health was not very good from 1860 onwards..

I think there may be a couple of other children between 1860 and 1866..because on the 1871 Census..in the household of Charles at Harriet..apart from james gregson (father of Charles) "widower"..there are Rosanna and Alice..who I think are shown as "sisters"..i.e of Charles.....therefore children of James and the late Mary......I'll check this out..........
EDIT........yes!! CONFIRMED.......ROSANNA GREGSON baptised 27.12.1863..and SARAH ALICE GREGSON baptised 25.08.1861 both at Longford, and both children of James and Mary.........poor Mary..no wonder she just gave up!!........those Gregson men were like rabbits!!

Derek.

Thank you so much Derek.........I kind of suspected there may be more additions to the brood.

Would love to know what the Overseal connection was and why they were there before Mary died.... Possibly friends or family........may never know but may discover another family member living there.......I am never surprised at what this research turns up.

Feel so sorry for poor Mary she must have died absolutely exhausted. Have got details of civil death registration and think I will order cert for my own curiosity. The death of Martha in 1860 may have put her on the slippery slope.........dont think I would have wanted to be around in her time, least of all married to a Gregson man !!!

Thank you again for all your help.......I'll let you know how poor Mary died.....not quite sure what info is given on death certs in 1869 but never know might provide a lead to the Overseal connection.

Until later.
Susan :-D

Susan.........it will give cause of death certainly..i have a death certificate for one of my family.(in 1852)...cause of death :- "Visitation of God..Immediate"........!!

EDIT.......have found you a link with Overseal..and now we have TWO Mary Ann Gregsons !!!! and they are definitely two different ones!!
I think James and Mary Gregson may have been in Overseal by invitation!!
Their son JOHN GREGSON (longford 1842) was knocking off a certain SARAH CHELL born Overseal 1844..........and married her in 1864 at Longford.....and had four children as follows:-
Mary Ann 1864 (longford)
Sarah Elizabeth 05.04.1868
John William or William J..1869
Joseph 11.11.1871...last three at Overseal

Mary Ann Gregson Overseal 1866 was definitely daughter of James and Mary
Mary Ann Gregson Longford1864 was definitely daughter of John and Sarah
JOHN being son of JAMES..
so though only two years apart, they were Aunt and Niece.......

just thought you'd like to know !!! and yes i am sure!!


Derek.

WOW.........I just don't know how you do it Derek......You seem to be able to solve any mystery ....You must have seen some funny goings on during your research!!!!

I will order the death cert just to see what the poor soul died of. Never seen a cause of death like "Visitation of God. " think it just means,,,,no idea. ????? lol

At least we now what Mary and James were doing in Overseal.. Did see the other birth for Mary Ann in 1864 but dismissed it as we were pretty sure we had the correct one for 1866 in Overseal.

Thanks for all your assistance..........Will let you know what caused Mary's passing when I get the cert.

Again many thanks, keep up the good work.
Susan

Hi Derek,

Thank you so much for the marriage info and also the baptism dates. I am a direct descendant of Jemima who married William Fentam.

Chrissie x

Hi Derek,

I came across your thread and the help you provided Susan with the Gregson family. I too have a Mary Gregson c1773 who married Charles Pakeman of Sutton on the Hill in September 1794.

I was wondering if she may be of the same lineage as Susan's early Gregsons? I thought my Mary's father was Charles Gregson born c1743 in the Ashbourne district, but now I'm not too sure.

I know that Mary and Charles had 4 children (3 survived) and it was their son Charles Jnr that is my direct branch, but am struggling with Mary Gregson's parents etc.

Any help would be appreciated with trying to detangle this curly thread!

Thank you

Barbara

Hello Barbara..welcome to my crazy world!!........
I've had a quick look at your enquiry..at the moment I see no connection with Susan's family..but coming from \Longford it seems that it is likely.......and me being what i am..if there is a conection..I'll find it!!
What I can tell you is the following:_

CHARLES GREGSON was baptised 13.07.1744 at Longford ..son of Henry and Mary.....I'll investigate them later.

He married ELIZABETH Brindley 18.09.1768 at Ashbourne

They had the following confirmed children..there may have been others:_

Elizabeth 06.11.1769
Samuel 27.12.1770
MARY 12.04.1773
Thomas 23.04.1775

There is a Charles son of Charles 30.01.1780.......probably not related.unless the mother died in or shortly after childbirth.

MARY GREGSON married CHARLES PAKEMAN in 1794 at Barrow on Trent.

It's all i have for now but will look further.....and please come back to me if you need more.
Edit..have found trouble,potentially...........I have only one Charles Gregson born in the right time scale...(1744)..but two marriages..one to Elizabeth in 1768..and (in Susan's family) to Mary in 1763........at this moment I have no idea which is which...so hold fire on his parents....
Derek.

To Susan and to Barbara...............we knew that the CHARLES GREGSONS were certainly lusty guys..............but now i have only one CHARLES GREGSON 1744.and he certainly appears to be the only one..and two marriages..............one explanation of the two marriages......is that he could have been a bigamist!!!!! OH JOY!!

Two independent sources have is his parents..as i found for Susan..to be Henry Gregson and Mary North......with two different wives........

Another large Scotch required........

Derek.

Good Morning Derek and Barbara.....

Oh Boy these Gregsons sure did like variety in their lives......

Derek....there is some information relating to Charles Gregsons marriage on an a******y tree........ Its something like this.....
"If Charles Gregson 1744 married Mary Langdale there would have been approximately a 10 year age difference at the time of marriage they would have been abut 16 and 26. ... Its possible Charles Gregson (son of John) baptised 1729 married Mary Langdale and my Charles 1744 married Elizabeth Brindley. John Gregson and Henry Gregson were both sons of Charles Gregson & Ann

Apologies if you have already seen this but might put a different angle on things..........Not that I would ever doubt your information as I know it is taken from the relevant parish records.

Awaiting your comments with interest.....
Susan

Hello Susan..your reasoning is acceptable about the age difference..but the Source is suspect.

I have had a good look at the Trees on ancestry for Charles both 1729 and 1744....but they are all..including those "Gregson" trees..ultimately self contradictory........Charles 1729..married Mary longdale 1761..died March 1810..son of unknown parents..son of charles and Ann..son of Henry and Mary North............Charles 1744..same details throughout..marriage of either of the two ladies..mixture of same parents..same death date..........and NONE of them gives any substantiation to a Birth of Charles Gregson 1729..just c1729 Derbyshire..some add parents some don't........

Nowhere can i find any notion of a Birth of Charles Gregson 1729.and if i can't then the poeple on the aforementioned trees can't either.....

It is of course a rational answer to the problem......Charles 1729 marrying 1761..and Charles 1744 marrying 1768.......and of course..your tribe all stem from Charles 1763 son of Charles and Mary..so it is actually no big deal..except that you cannot go back to Henry and Mary...in fact you cannot go back any further until we find Charles 1729

Henry and Mary were indisputably parents of Charles 1744...........

Charles and Ann were parents of Charles 1696!!...whom in turn might have married ANN Johnson.the alleged parents of Charles 1729......the "son of John" is wrong..


so all our work is correct back to Charles and Mary Longdale.....but which Charles???

I personally am unable to prove that Charles 1729 ever existed.

By the way
Elizabeth Brindley came from Alstonfield Staffs (North of Ashbourne).but her children were born at Longford and Sutton on the Hill....

Bearing in mind that Charles 1763 is DEFINITELY yours....you family cannot come from Charles and elizabeth nee Brindley cos they did not marry till 1768.....

Derek

Hi Derek..........This is a really long shot.......
Information relating to Gregsons on this site.

http://www.sparroworks.ca/gregsonfamily/persons/person49.html
shows Charles as being born 1729........which nobody can find.
but does show Charles Gregson 1698 as his father..........he was supposed to have married an Elizabeth and had an Ann Gregson 1725. Half sister of Charles 1729.

It shows the old boy married again to Ann Johnson and had Charles 1729. Nothing to determine where info comes from or how accurate it is.

Have just had a quick look on free reg for a marriage and found one between an Ann Johnson and Charles Gregson for 1737.
http://www.freereg.org.uk/cgi/SearchResults.pl?RecordType=Marriages&RecordID=2530884

Ann was a widow........and marriage took place after Charles 1729 birth.........Perhaps he was baptised under a different name ????
Am a bit pushed for time for a while now and need to leave it alone.

Await your thoughts.
Susan

hi Susan........I have been in touch with Richard Gregson..the perpetuator of the Sparrowhawks site............and he has responded with some candour and honesty that his research was suspect.....and taken from other people's research..he is in Canada and has no access to Parish records.........he even admits i may be right......

I'm sure that Charles 1696 and Ann and Charles 1668 are the forebears of our Gregsons....but not as has been shown by others.......

Ann Johnson is given as the mother of Charles 1729..she did not marry Charles gregson until 1736..at Etwall....and if there are half brother and hal sisters in the woodpile somewhere..we're unlikely to get the truth.

\i hasve put an enquiry on "Find Ancestors" for Charles Gregson 1729...and he still can't be found.

The only explanation is that he was not baptised.........and i suppose you could build your tree back on that basis.....but you'd never be sure......

what worries me is that evry source i've see, every tree, honest or stolen, has only one death date for Charles Gregson 1729 or 1744...and that is March 1810 at Longford.
would be very interesting to get the age at death.......but i don't think that is possible.......

At the moment.your Tree is accurate back to CHARLES GREGSON 1763 son of Charles and Mary...........

Just had an idea.....I'm going looking for MI's at Longford!!

Derek.

Hello Derek,

How about Charles gregson baptised 12/4/1729 in Longford.Father is Charles JR. :-)

Hello Derek,

Forgot to say that Ann johnson was a widow when she married Charles gregson
1736.

;-)

Hello Meercat...would be wonderful..how are you by the way???? and thanks for being in touch again...........where on earth did you find that information????.
World War III will be averted if you can show me the Source...of the baptism.

Many thanks as always....

Derek.