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I realised at the time of posting that we were dealing with two sets of twins and checked for deaths of the first set accordingly. I couldn't find the death registrations. Surely if the twins were live born and died within a short time their deaths would be registered too?
It was a case of using the information given for the brothers and trying to match it with births under the same maiden name. I do however still feel that there is some vital information missing here and the marriage certificate is desperately needed to get everyone on the right track.

Hm, now I really am confused! :-}}

Ah, a second marriage!

Btw, I'm not persuaded that "Male Shorten" is your man.


Births Mar 1918
Shorten Male Birbeck Lambeth 1d 32[35]
Shorten Female Birbeck Lambeth 1d 32[35]

It is rare for children to be registered without a name if they survived. It is common for children who died shortly after birth. I think those births are twins who did not survive.


Note that Rosina and Sidney were apparently also twins:

Births Jun 1919
Shorten Rosina Birbeck Lambeth 1d 419
Shorten Sidney Birbeck Lambeth 1d 419

(Rosina did survive and married in 1940, it looks like.)


Edit -- possibly neither twin was expected to survive, and/or the female twin had died already, and both were registered without names ...

Hmm!

1911

SHORTEN ALICE 1882 29 Lambeth London
SHORTEN WILLIAM 1879 32 Lambeth London


This looks like Alice and her first husband in 1901:

Name: Alice Hancock
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1881
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: William
Where born: Kensington

Name: William Hancock
Age: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1879
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Alice
Where born: Kensington

Civil parish: Kensington
County/Island: London

Just one thing to add, Brian -- because the "rule" is: always start with what you know. That is, your parents. We know for sure this is their marriage:


Name: John Shorten
Spouse Surname: Richardson
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1944
Registration district: Lambeth
Registration county (inferred): Surrey
Volume Number: 1d
Page Number: 272


You need to order that certificate, because it will tell you your dad's father's name (and occupation).

That name will match up with the father's name on your dad's birth certificate. That's why certificates are necessary to make the links in the chain.


Meanwhile, I may have the answer to the Birbeck surname.


Marriages Sep 1900
> Birbeck Alice Louisa Brighton 2b 424
Edwards Henrietta Margaret Brighton 2b 424
> Hancock William Henry Brighton 2b 424
Williams Richard Brighton 2b 424

(I don't see a death for WH Hancock, in the GRO or in WWI)

Marriages Jun 1917
Hancock Alice L Shorten Lambeth 1d 682
Shorten William Hancock Lambeth 1d 682

First of all, thanks to everyone for your help.
Can't believe I started this string only 3 days ago!!

Seems that my next steps are to get certificates for the names Astra found, and also to look for the marriages.

When I get something meaningful I'll add it to the string so you all know.

Bye for now and thanks again.

regards

Brian

So the brothers were the clue - good! This is a good example, Brian, of looking sideways to find what you want as their names are less common, and made the task easy in the end. I'd bet the Male Shorten is him.
Jan

So, overnight it looks as though Astra has found the brothers - mother's maiden name Birbeck.

As she has said, your father could have just been registered as male - no name given at the time. The reference is

Births Mar 1918 (99%)
>>>Shorten Male Birbeck Lambeth 1d 32[35]

this could mean that although he was born in 1917 he wasn't registered until the January of 1918 which would show up in the March 1918 quarter.


It is very easy to send for a certificate using a reference number (as above). Simply google GRO or use this link

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/

and you will see how to fill in the form - you don't need an exact date of birth - the reference number is enough.

The cost is £7 per certificate



I had a look for a Shorten/Birbeck marriage but couldn't find one - maybe someone else can.


I couldn't find a birth for a Ralph, but found this possible marriage for him.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Jun 1934 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shorten Ralph H Van Helvoirt Pel Battersea 1d 726


Also, Rosina's marriage
Marriages Mar 1928 (96%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PHILLIPS William V Shorten W.Ham 4a 220
Shorten Rosina A Phillips W.Ham 4a 220


Hope this all helps.

From your information Brian it could be that the mother's maiden name was Birbeck and it looks as though your John could have been registered as just Male. See below. Can't find a Ralph though.

Births Mar 1918 (99%)
>>>Shorten Male Birbeck Lambeth 1d 32[35]
Shorten Female Birbeck Lambeth 1d 32[35]
Births Jun 1919 (>99%)
Shorten Rosina Birbeck Lambeth 1d 419
>>Shorten Sidney Birbeck Lambeth 1d 419
Births Jun 1920 (>99%)
>>Shorten Alexander G Birbeck Lambeth 1d 788

Brothers were Alex, Sid and Ralph.

Not sure whether they were older or younger.

Dumb question.....

Cynthia has kindly told me of Jack Shorten born in Wandsworth in September 1916.
(not sure how you find it was September)

To order the certificate I need the exact day in September; How do I find that out?

Regards

Brian

Brian, I imagine the above birth is correct. Who were his brothers? It might be possible to cross-check their births to see if they too have same mother's maiden name, which would make it more certain.

Do these mean anything to you?

Births Dec 1911
SHORTEN Elsie K Johnson St.Geo.H.Sq. 1a 731

Births Jun 1914
SHORTEN Charles E Johnson St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 756

Births Jun 1920
Shorten Cyril F Johnson Horsham 2b 616

Jan

I don't often do lookups Brian, but I can manage this one from freebmd (fun tosearch for yourself and free too!)

Births Sep 1916 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shorten Jack Johnson Wandsworth 1d 1152


Does the mother's maiden name of Johnson mean anything to you?

Hello

Thanks to Cynthia for some hand-holding!!

My parents married in London in 1944.
Don't know why London as I believe his family came from Norfolk, except he was a soldier.

My Mother was Ellen Richardson.
I have the certificate which shows my grandfather was William Shorten, a porter and my Dad was 26 which would tie in with a DOB of 24/10/1917.
Both witnesses were from my mothers family. Don't know why as my dad had three brothers. even if my granddad wasn't there for some reason I would expect one of them to be a witness.

I did wonder if the year of birth being wrong because he was a boy soldier and may well have lied about his age, so I have been looking from 1914 to 1917.

Trouble is my Mother always said it was 1917 and I figure she would know the correct year even if the Army didn’t. :-}}}

Not sure how to progress things from here; if I can't find a birth certificate for my dad how do I find his birthplace, mothers name etc.?

Interesting that there is a birth for a Jack Shorten in Wandworth in J-S 1916. Better than I managed!

Can I have the details for the birth certificate please?

Thanks to everyone for your help.

I pm'd Brian to let him know about the replies and he has responded - he was unsure as to how things worked. I am encouraging him to reply on the thread!

Hi

Also found the marriage in 1944 too, on this he is down as John, but there is a birth for a Jack Shorten in Wandworth in J-S 1916.

Have you got a cop y of the marriage cert ?

Bit early perhaps (mothers maiden name Watling)

Births Dec 1913
Shorten Jack Watling Blofield 4b 355

The district Blofield is in the county of Norfolk;

Do you know if your dad had brothers & sister? Do you hae the marriage certificate, the witnesses might be relatives.

Brian, would this be your dad's death?

Name: John Shorten
Birth Date: 24 Oct 1917
Death Registration Month/Year: Aug 1992
Age at death (estimated): 74
Registration district: Bexley
Inferred County: Kent
Volume: 11
Page: 417


There's no birth in Norfolk for that name between 1911 and 1922.

And there's no John Shorten birth in 1917, unfortunately.

He (or the person who reported it) may well have been mistaken about his birthdate.

Is 1922 too late. Born Yarmouth. Possible Parents marriage in 1921 Yarmouth.