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As you say, I know dates for Ralph.

I guess the certificate I really wanted to have was my Dads, but it is nice to have the certificate for the others also.

My tree in GR is filling out nicely now!

What do you rate as the best site for searching?

I have tried about 6 - I'm sure there are more - without much success, but you two found lots of information for me in about an hour, so any recommendations?

Regards

Brian

You did say, it was just a little cryptic and we wanted to make sure we were reading the "it"s right. ;)


You have Ralph's birth, from my post up above:

Births Jun 1904
Hancock Ralph Herbert Pancras 1b 87

Oh - you mean you have to order and pay for it. ;)

Sorry, thought I explained....

Yesterday I got Sidney and Alexander; today I got 'Male'.

All have the same parents -
William Shorten and Alice Louise Shorten (Birbeck)
Williams occupation changes during the years as you would expect -

Male (1917) he is a Private in the 32nd Royal Fusiliers; for Sidney (1919) and Alexander (1920) he is a Brewers Drayman (ex Rifleman).

The residence is the same for all three occasions - 7 Wyvill Road, South Lambeth, London.

So now I am looking for certificates for the wedding of William and Alice, birth certificate for Ralph and the two 'females', and the census records for the family to see if there are other brothers/sisters.

Thank you both for your help; I've progressed more in the last week than in the last three months.

FYI, I'm in the UK, about 10 mile south of London.

Regards

Brian

Yep. UK for me - North West England.

Come on Brian.......spill the beans!


Good evening JaneyC. or should I say good afternoon?

What certificate just arrived?? The "Male" one?

And it has the right parents' names on it? Give it up then -- tell us what it says!

"Here" for me is eastern standard time -- Ontario, Canada. "Here" for Cynthia? I assume the UK - it was pushing 11 pm when she wrote that.

Update...

Certificate just arrivd, so surname and vol/page was good enough.

So I have triple confirmation about grandparents' details

Back to digging.

BTW, Cynthia, where is 'here'. are you in the UK?

Regards

brian




Well good news so far then. But..........not sure about that other cert. I don't think JC was convinced by that one....but no doubt she will drop by. It's late here and the brain cells are wilting.

Add

Well good news so far then. But..........not sure about that other cert. I don't think JC was convinced by that one....but no doubt she will drop by. It's late here and the brain cells are wilting.

Hello, thought you all may like an update.

Partial success!

I now have birth certificates for two brothers - Sidney and Alexander.
So I have confirmation of my grandparents names, with address and ocupation.

I ordered my dad's birth certificate at the same time, but unfortunately put the name as John, not male, so no certificate in the same post as the other two.

I guess that means the GRO couldn't send it; I'll have to email them and see if I can redo the same order.

Interesting that in both cases there is a delay between the dob and the date of registration -

Alexander dob = 24/3/1920 reg = 4/6/1920
Sidney dob = 28/1/1919 reg = 9/4/1919

That may explain why my dad was born in 1917 but registered in 1918.
Not sure about male rather than a name tho'.

I'll keep digging.


Regards

Brian

Oh, well! Garsh!

But this thread the best thing Brian ever did? Your wife and kids hadn't better hear that, Brian. ;)

Told you she was good!

Janey - you are good!!!!

I remember now a story that Ralph was in the Guards Chapel in London playing for a service when a german raid started.
The congregation left first, but before the guardsmen could leave a bomb hit the Chapel.

starting this thread was definitely the best thing I ever did.

Regards

B

??

Name: SHORTEN, RALPH HERBERT
Initials: R H
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Musician
Regiment/Service: Coldstream Guards
Age: 39
Date of Death: 18/06/1944
Service No: 3649008
Additional information: Son of William and Alice Louise Shorten; husband of Eleanore Shorten, of Battersea, London.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: 33A. B. 9.
Cemetery: BROOKWOOD MILITARY CEMETERY


followed by Eleanor M Shorten's remarriage in Battersea in 1947?
(Found that marriage first, then surmised a WWII death for Ralph.)


!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Births Jun 1904
Hancock Ralph Herbert Pancras 1b 87

If this is Ralph's marriage --

Name: Ralph H Shorten
Spouse: Eleonore Van Helvoirt Pel
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1934
Registration district: Battersea
Registration county (inferred): London
Volume Number: 1d
Page Number: 726

then

(a) he was obviously older than the other children
and
(b) might the "H" be for Hancock?

But I can't find a Ralph Hancock birth ...

You have it! I'm an idiot! It says that back on page 1 --

My Mother was Ellen Richardson.
I have the certificate which shows my grandfather was William Shorten, a porter and my Dad was 26 which would tie in with a DOB of 24/10/1917.

-- duh. Forgive me. Well. There we are. I thought I was working blind, and came up with the right guy, it seems. All the better.

Now, the problem is -- it's pretty definite those Shorten-Birbeck births are your people, but since the "Male" birth cert won't have a name on it anyhow -- ah, but if the birthdate matches up with your dad's, then Rosina will be your aunt. ;)

But hmm, where is uncle Ralph ... If there were children born before the Shorten-Hancock/Birbeck marriage (which really, with them living together since 1911, one would have expected!) I haven't been able to identify any, as Shorten, Hancock or Birbeck.

Janey

Pretty much the only evidence I have is the marriage certificate; my parents married in London in 1944.
I wondered why London as I have always believed his family came from Norfolk, perhaps you have now supplied the answer - he was born here.

My Mother was Ellen Richardson.
The certificate shows my grandfather was William Shorten, a porter and my dad was 26 which would tie in with a DOB of 24/10/1917.
Both witnesses were from my mothers family. Don't know why as my dad had three brothers. even if my granddad wasn't there for some reason I would expect one of them to be a witness.

So, now to order the certificates for the brothers.

Regards

Brian

Hey Brian, no one ever said this family history thing was easy you know - but it sure is fun!!

Go with Astra's and Janey's advice (boy, she's good when she gets going) and get that marriage cert first. When you have that, come back and tell us what it says.

Don't start a new thread, just add it onto here so that everyone can remember what has already been found. Everytime something is added, it takes the thread back to the top of the page and it will appear in the My Threads of those who have helped, so we will see it and pick it up again.

Now you're REALLY confused!! lol

Brian! Go ahead and get those birth certificates -- but for sure, get your parents' marriage certificate! That's the one and only definite starting point. ;)

Hi Janey

Shows what you can do with experience, practice and a lateral mind!

Thanks for your help.

I'll get the certificates for the brothers and Jack, and see what they tell me about parents and occupations

Twins make sense; when my wife was expecting our sons my mother said there was a history of twins in my fathers family.

I'll order the certificates this weekend and, assuming the royal mail is still working, let you know what I find.


Regards

Brian

Sorry, Brian!

The tale as I am imagining it:

Alice Birbeck married William Henry Hancock in 1900. They are together in the 1901 census.

Alice and William Hancock became estranged. By 1911, she is living with William Shorten as a couple (she is using his surname).

William Hancock dies, possibly in WWI.

Alice Birbeck Hancock and William Shorten marry, now that she is a widow. She marries under her first married name, Hancock.

Their children are Shorten, with the mother's surname Birbeck, Alice's birth surname.

Any clearer? ;)

Still not necessarily your people, but it fits. Your parents' marriage certificate should tell you for sure who your dad's father was.

I wonder:


Name: HANCOCK, WILLIAM HENRY
Initials: W H
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Army Service Corps
Date of Death: 15/03/1917
Service No: S/295376
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: I. 4.
Cemetery: HARVINGTON NEW BURIAL GROUND


William would have been pushing 40 - estranged from his wife, parents deceased? so no next of kin for the record. Army Service Corps is a likely assignment for a near-middle-aged man. Alice and William Shorten's marriage was registered in 2nd quarter 1917 - as soon as she was free to marry?