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Update on 1871 census:-

Elizabeth Craddick :- aged 57yrs - Houskeeper - born: (could be either W or N Doncaster
Agness Craddick:- aged 30yrs - Dressmaker - born Lane: Manchester
Chas T. Craddick:- aged 16yrs - Telegraph Clerk - born: do do

and 1881 census:-
Elizabeth Craddock abt 1814 Yorkshire, England Head Pendleton in Salford, Lancashire
(Housekeeper)
Agnes Craddock abt 1844 Manchester, Lancashire, England Daughter Pendleton in Salford, Lancashire
(Dressmaker)
Charles Tom Craddock abt 1855 Manchester, Lancashire, England Son Pendleton in Salford, Lancashire
(Railway Goods Guard)
Place of birth for Elizabeth is only given as Yorkshire so no help here!
Agnes Ratcliffe abt 1869 Manchester, Lancashire, England Granddaughter Pendleton in Salford, Lancashire

Gai - the 1841 census details themselves are down to Christine - I just added the driving route.
I'm not surprised you've missed out on Cheetham - I missed out on it too - and I've been driven thru it!!
It sometimes helps to look stuff up pre-google on:
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/

and on:
http://www.old-maps.co.uk/

Both these sites let you enter OS coordinates.
At old-maps, you can zoom on the 6" maps (1:10560) but not the 25" (1:2500)
At streetmap, if you unzoom to the bar 1 step longer, it puts you into an OS map if you're in a roadmap. On an OS map, the blue grid lines are 1km apart.
On the oldstyle streetmap, navigation is clunkier, but hovering over a square shows the OS coords of the centre of the square, which is handy for figuring out what the coords are.


http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1185101
Go down to the cars and hang a left, and after 100m you'll be on the site of Broomfield
[If you read the technical details, I ought to explain there's two OS coord systems the newer one (which this site uses) is sometimes called the Landranger system, after a map series title. I said Broomfield was 383800,401400 - lets give this to the nearest 100m, i.e., 3838,4014. Now strip out the leading digit and replace the stripped pair with a magic two letter code and run the whole thing together as SD838014 which is given as the photographer's location. This site only gives picture labels to the nearest 1km, and always choses the SW corner, so they label this square as SD8301. A bit geeky, but if you read technical details, what else do you expect]

mgnv, I have just read your updated 1841 census and I think its unbelievable what you have found. I have never heard of Cheetham but will try google maps to see what I can find.

I'm not going to be around much the next couple of days, big weekend of soccer grand finals and kids refereeing all over the place.

Will hit the trail again next week as I want to see if I can find any connection to Sidney Moremon of Plymouth England (8 Power Street, Plymouth) I'm told who married Rosa Beatrice George and immigrated to Australia about 1926 with their son Francis Edward Moremon (DOB 26/08/1919). I have found this line of Moremon family via Facebook and they have given me all their info on everyone in Australia but I have no connection. The father keeps emailing wanting to know my progress and whether were are related and I feel bad because I have become obsessed with the Craddocks/Craddicks.

Have a great weekend everyone.

Updated 1841 again now I've found where places were.

I sometimes wonder about Queenslanders - well anyone really who won't go onto summer time as it'll confuse the cattle.

I have just tried to purchase the birth certificate for Ada Craddick from the Queensland BDM online and unfortunately they don't have that service. You have to print the form and post it to them. How backward is that. I have also investigated the local history society which was recommended to be me but they only cover NSW, the Uk and Scotland and not Qld. Looks like it will be snail mail to solve this mystery.

Catherine and I have exchanged more pm's - I've updated my post of the 1841 census.
Cheetham is Manchester M8.
Go N on the A56 = Great Ducie St, Irwell St is first left after Sherbourne St. It used to run 50m to the banks of the Irwell, but the river has since been redirected.
Continue N on the A56 for another 100m, then fork right and go up Waterloo Rd for maybe 1300m until it meets Cheetham Hill Rd and Halliwell Lane in a mutiway junction.
Broomfield used to be 200m to the NW, between Halliwell Lane and Heath St. By 1910, the area had been built up, and Broomfield St ran thru the old site. The street is gone now.
OS coords =(383500,399600) and (383800,401400).
.

I think it's clear we suspect that Robert and Thomas were brothers. Although having the same surname, trade, and both being near neighbours with pob=SCT is very circumstantial, it might be the only hint for getting further back with Thos.

Now another problem is where is Eliz Gill from.
1851 - Songhomsel, Yorkshire
1861 - Yorkshire, but a visitor (Mary Foster) is from Strog Emalsol, Yorkshire, England
(place of birth looks like Long Eonalsol but difficult to read?)
1871 - W Doncaster, Yorkshire [rg10/4063/111/? ]
1881 - York
Deaths Dec 1888 (>99%)
Craddock Elizabeth 74 Salford 8d 97

If W Doncaster is a mistranscription of N Doncaster, then one possibility is Long Sandall, a village 6 km NE of Doncaster, but within the parish of Doncaster. A further 1 km NE is Kirk Sandall, the kirktown of it's own parish.


1861 census show Elizabeth born Yorkshire, so that doesn't help with the place of birth:-
Elizabeth Craddick Elizabeth abt 1814 Yorkshire, England Head Hulme, Lancashire (Widow) - Dealer in Fancy Goods
Agnes Craddick Elizabeth abt 1838 Manchester, Lancashire, England Daughter Hulme, Lancashire (Miliner)
Elizabeth Craddick Elizabeth abt 1848 Manchester, Lancashire, England Daughter Hulme, Lancashire (Apprentice to Straw Bonnet Maker)
Charles F Craddick Elizabeth abt 1855 Manchester, Lancashire, England Son Hulme, Lancashire
Elizabeth Gill abt 1786 Sheffield, Yorkshire, England Mother Hulme, Lancashire (Widow)
Mary Foster abt 1829 Strog Emalsol, Yorkshire, England Visitor Hulme, Lancashire
(place of birth looks like Long Eonalsol but difficult to read?)
Ann Chadwick abt 1801 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Visitor Hulme, Lancashire
Wright Fletcher abt 1838 Besserth Barn, Lancashire, England Visitor Hulme, Lancashire
Living:- 73 Duke Street

Don't know if this will help but....

re Robert and Grace Craddock from 1841 census:-

WILLIAM CRADDOCK - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 19 OCT 1834 Saint Peters Square Presbyterian Scotch National, Manchester, Lancashire, England
Birth: 25 SEP 1834
Father: ROBT. CRADDOCK
Mother: GRACE BRISBAN
sibling:-
JOHN CRADDOCK - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 26 DEC 1836
Gender: Male Christening: 05 MAR 1837 Saint Peters Square Presbyterian Scotch National, Manchester, Lancashire, England


and also Thos. and Elizabeth Craddock from 1841 census:-
WILLIAM DARLING CRADDICK - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 02 MAR 1835 Cathedral, Manchester, Lancashire, England
Father: THOMAS CRADDICK
Mother: ELIZ GILL
siblings:-
ELIZABETH CRADDOCK - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 31 MAY 1840 Cathedral, Manchester, Lancashire, England
AGNES CRADDICK - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 13 AUG 1837 Cathedral, Manchester, Lancashire, England

and their marriage:-
THOMAS CRADDOCK - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Marriage: 14 JAN 1833 Cathedral, Manchester, Lancashire, England
Spouse: ELIZABETH GILL

Lol about your aunt :-)

Hm can't see another option, though there are a couple of family history societies. Certs are $33 from the official site. But you can see Ada's birth reg at www.bdm.qld.gov.au/IndexSearch/BirIndexQry.m that shows parents names.

meanwhile here's a bit more on Louisa MOREMON's children (TIMMINS)

John Henry 1888-1952 Ryde
Wm P 1890-1890
Elsie Gertrude E 1891, m. John Nairn ELLIOTT 1915, d. 1970 Ryde
Doris Louise 1898, m. Mervyn Ancor ANDERSON 1917, d. 1968 Sutherland
Maggie Emily Lucy 1902, m. Arthur Jas HILLMAN 1923, d. 1974

Yes, I knew Agnes was Wm's sis - incidentally, if you bookmark the URL for her bp, and recheck it every so often, they will eventually do 1834, which was probly when Wm got bp'ed there.

I also think Ada was b in Qld. I was a teenager before I realized I never actually knew where my parents were wed - before then I'd just assumed I knew - I was off by 500km, which is pretty far by English standards, although well less than Ada's pob discrepancy of 20000km.

Hi Cherilyn,

I think the only way to answer the Ada birth mystery is to order the certificate from the information you have found and see what it states.

Apparently there is a historical society that can supply certificates cheaper than ordering them through BDM, so maybe I need to do some investigation and see whether they can come up with. If they can then the birth certificate and Williams death certificate would have to be a certain purchase. If they cant' then full price might be the only way to solve the mystery.

I do have some good news. I have spent today walking the cemetery and have found Ada's plague, it doesn't have any information besides her DOB and DOD but I found it. Unfortunately Eli's grave is just a mass of weeds without a headstone so no luck on that front as i'm still no closer to finding out how and when he arrived in Australia.

I spent the day with my aunt and as I have printed the pages from the notice board showed her the information about Louisa and her marriage.
She remembers her dad talking about the Louisa and John Timmins but never realised that Louisa was Eli's sister. My cousin and I just looked at her and shook our heads.

I appreciate your help and also the help from mgnv as I wouldn't know nearly as much about the family.

Or maybe Wm's death:
William CRADDOCK in 1887 aged 51 in Little Bay NSW (reg 5134)

By the way, Ada's year of birth of 1865 fits her age at death but does not match her being in NSW from the age of 7 (could have been 'best guess' by the informant), nor does that match her parents arrival in 1857 (which would be 8 yrs before she was born!)

But all else fits, with her parents marrying in Manchester in 1856, having son Thos in Hulme, Manchester later that same year, and arriving in NSW in 1857 aged 22 & 19 aboard 'John Bunyan'. (Baby Thomas died on the voyage.) Wm being 22 in 1857 also fits his approx age in 1851 census, as does the age at death above.

What do you think?

Thanks for the update mgnv! (Btw, it is Wm from that 1851 family, not Agnes!)

I still contend that Ada was born in Queensland, as the indexes definitely state:

Birth of Ada Jane CRADDICK in 1865 (reg C1322), parents William CRADDICK and Jane HARTLEY.

Also fits her age at death AND is the same year that your rellie told you (even tho she said it was in Manchester!). The earlier Ada Jane born in NSW died there as a baby.

The only way to be sure now would be to order the birth cert but I think Qld certs are quite pricey.

Perhaps Ada was told that Manchester was where she was born? Or maybe she assumed that, because her parents married there? By my reckoning she would have been about 4 yrs old when they went back to NSW from Qld, so it's not like she would remember...

Maybe next step is to order Wm & Jane's marrriage...
????

Caroline has pm'ed me with some answers to my Q's of 29/7/09.
I've added her answers to that post, and to the 1851 census in the preceding post

This does reinforce the view that the given Agnes's baptism is our Agnes

Yes Cherilyn, the marriage certificate definitely states William Henry Craddock and Jane Hartley as her parents.

Also the death certificate states that she was only in the Australian colony for 82 years in NSW. With Eli's it shows how long in Queensland and how long in New South Wales he spent before he died. So unless the certificates are wrong and both say Manchester as her place of birth.

I spent time today trying to trace a birth in Manchester and got nothing but given my search skills I'm not surprised.

Hi Gai

Great news - but I thought Ada was born in Queensland? Are her parents shown as Wm & Jane nee HARTLEY?

?
Cherilyn

Eli and Ada's marriage certificate and Ada's death certificate has arrived in the mail.

So what I now know is that the Louisa Moremon that arrived here in 1887 must have been Eli's sister because her name appears as a witness on their marriage certificate. So that is one mystery solved, so now I have another line of relatives to follow.

What also appears on both certificates is where Ada was born and it says Manchester. On her death certificate is states she was 89 when she died and had been in the country 82 years so if you believe it then Ada arrived here when she was 7. So Cherilyn you could be right with your findings on when the Craddick's arrived.

I have just ordered Eli and Ada's marriage certificate and also Ada's death certificate online. It should take somewhere between 3 to 4 weeks to arrive. Though when I ordered Eli's death certificate it took 4 weeks and 3 days to arrive. So I will have to wait patiently to solve the mystery of where Ada was born.

In the meantime I think I will invest in some family tree software so I can collate all the wonderful information everyone has supplied me.

It's a nice and sunny Saturday morning here in Australia and I'm off to watch my daughter referee soccer. Have a nice weekend everyone.

Just looking over your thread again and realised I hadn't posted what I believe to be the 1841 census for Eli's father, so here it is:-

Name: Charles Moreman
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1821
Gender: Male
Where born: Gloucestershire, England

Civil parish: Mangotsfield
Hundred: Barton Regis
County/Island: Gloucestershire
Country: England

Street Address: Mangotsfield Street

Occupation: Ind.

Registration district: Keynsham
Sub-registration district: Oldland
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Elizabeth Moreman 50
Peter Moreman 25 - (all noted as Coal Miners)
Charles Moreman 20
Stephen Moreman 15
James Moreman 15

would just like to thank you for your very nice comment, on Susan's thread, about the help that Cynthia gave you in how to find and post onto your thread. It's not often that people go out of their way to make such comments, so on her behalf thank you.
Catherine

Hi Gai

Yes you can check at www.bdm.nsw.gov.au

There is a death in 1925 in Marrickville of a Jane A CRADDICK, daughter of John. Clare is in mother column but tnot sure about that.

It is a tricky one.

As you say, best to start with Eli & Ada's marriage so you know you have the right parents. It is easy to get off on the wrong track and it is all speculation without hard eveidence (like certificates!)

Hi Cherilyn, I have quickly scanned your last posting and one thing I have with my dodgy family history is that Beatrice had her grandmother Jane Craddick dying at the Home of Peace in Marrickville in 1925. Because I was focusing on Eli, I haven't yet verified if that was correct.

Do you know if I can go into BDM and look at the microfilm before I purchase the certificates because going on all the information I have you could easily buy a certificate and it be the wrong person?