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"Keep thinking about why Charles said that he and MIE were married in London. (Well on her death certificate anyway). If they met on board the ship coming out to Australia why say you were married before you left England and they not go as a married couple on the voyage. Unless they ran away together."

Well -- I still think your Charles is *my* Charles from the now-deceased thread -- the seaman type who was already married. I can't remember where / when / to whom now. All that stuff - glad you have it copied, anyhow.

Could you just reproduce the bare bones about him?

birth
parents' names
wife's name
where he was in each census
(I remember them moving back and forth)

Ancestry is refusing to find him by name and mother's name (Hannah) in 1891 or 1881; it is simply disregarding the mother's name.


Oh, FMP -- I just searched for Kimberley and then Kimberly departures, dob 1884 +/- 2, to Australia, 1900-1912 or some such.

M I Kimberly was the only result in whatever search I did.

So then I searched for a Charles Carter going to the same place the same year. Again, he was the only result.

Now, they could be a coincidence ...

About Ivy McCarthy. I still can not believe that this is the same Charles who travelled to Aust with MIE. If you do a search of Charles Carter in NSW around that time there are many of them.. And there is a whole lot of them in the Cooma region.

I am going to go back again and start searching for a marriage for Charles and MIE in Australia. If they landed here in 1909 and their first child Nellie was born in 1911, they could have married in those two years before her birth. I have done this search before but dismissed the results when I received MIEs death certificate and the info about her marrying in London.

I am visiting the area where Charles and Mariann lived in Australia at the end of June. I have arranged to visit the historical museum which has provided me with a lot of my information. I am so looking forward to this visit..

Val

Oh! Duy! George is Alfred's father!

Alfred George in 1901 -- I wasn't paying attention:

Name: Alfred G Kimberley
Age: 44
Estimated Birth Year: abt *1857* not 1834
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Elizabeth
Where born: Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, England


And I STILL can't find the household in 1891.

If he was circus, there's a good chance they were out of the country. That other family I mentioned, from a thread here, had one kid born in Denmark, where they obviously were on one of the census dates.

Deaths in NSW to 1989 with
surname Carter
father Charles
mother Ivy


10309/1966 - yours
CARTER ELSIE JOYCE
CHARLES EDWARD
MARIANNE IVY
BURWOOD

27699/1948 - yours
CARTER ROY CHARLES
CHARLES EDWARD
MARIANNE IVY E
RYDE

15510/1977
CARTER NORMAN STEWART
CHARLES
IVY MAY
no district stated



I'm not seeing any reason to think anything except coincidence. Remember, I have a grx2 grfather Charles Carter. They litter the landscape.

Except the bit of your previous post I didn't quite get.

"With every scrap of what's left of my brain i can not work out how Charles Edward Carter could marry Ivy May McCarthy in 1920, at the time of the birth of the 6th child on Mariann's death certificate, list all nine children on her death certificate if they were not all hers and his, change his occupation from a farmer to a clerk, take 7 years off his age, still live at the same address as his first "wife" Mariann Ivy Elizabeth Carter, be the informant at her death and be buried next to her when he died 15 years after her death."

Not that you get it.


When:

Charles Carter
married
Ivy May McCarthy

*that* Charles Carter was living at the same address as -- what? and when? and whom?

Hi EvieB, Just typed you a long reply, clicked submit and it's gone. So here I go again.

Yes you have the correct Ivy MCCarthy. And I have noted the spelling as well. On

To redo my last reply. First thank you for finding me. A bit desolate yesterday. I think George Kimberley (1834) is Alfred Georges father and Alfred carried on the family tradition of circus performer.

It is most definitely the family in 1901. Ivy (Mariann) would have been 17. Wonder when she started calling herself Ivy. Wonder where she went.


Your research skills are amazing. How did you find Charles and MIE travelling to Australia. I spent hours searching FMP and have actually printed off every page I could find with Carter/Kimberley on it. Looks like that's how they came to Aust.

Yes I found the Kimberleys in the 1881 census. Not quite certain who to pick but now I know the names of the children through your amazing efforts I will be able to narrow down the search. Does that help with the 1881 census probably not but need to check ages of children.

Keep thinking about why Charles said that he and MIE were married in London. (Well on her death certificate anyway). If they met on board the ship coming out to Australia why say you were married before you left England and they not go as a married couple on the voyage. Unless they ran away together.

have requested Charles death certificate, the birth certificate of Beatrice Charles and MIE's youngest daughter (to establish who her mother was). Also Ivy McCarthy's death certificate to establish who her children were.

I am going to copy this message first and then click submit again.

Thank you. You are a gem!

Good you're awake. 'Cause I can't say as I am ...

Now, here we have the marriage of the parents of the Charles Carter who married Ivy McCarthy:

Marriages Dec 1875
CARTER William Thomas Leeds 9b 669
STEWART Margaret Noble Leeds 9b 669


and two options for a son Charles:

Births Mar 1881
CARTER Charles Lewis Leeds 9b 420 S
-- nope, that one died the following quarter

Births Dec 1889
Carter Charles Leeds 9b 418

Ivy (edited, I said Minnie at first) McCarthy who married a Charles Carter in 1920 was this one:

10553/1894 birth
MCCARTHY IVY M
father WILLIAM
mother MINNIE W
COOMA

3192/1892 marriage
MCCARTHY MICHAEL
SCHAEFFER MINNIE W
COOMA

Got that father's name wrong (on the marriage cert) too.


edited to add death:

20997/1978
CARTER IVY MAY
no father stated
mother MINNIE
no district stated in online record

Hi, I'm awake! Well out of bed anyway. Give me a few minutes to read your replies. Val

The Kimberleys in 1901 -- don't know whether you have all this.

Name: Elizabeth Kimberley
Age: 41
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Alfred G
Where born: Shresbury, Shropshire, England

Civil Parish: Battersea
Registration district: Wandsworth

Alfred G Kimberley 44
Elizabeth Kimberley 41
Beatrice A M Kimberley 15
Florence E M Kimberley 12
Ada Katherine Kimberley 3


Ivy has flown.

This is certainly Ivy travelling to Australia, isn't it?

KIMBERLY M I 1884 F 1909 London Australia Sydney

and Charles accompanying her?

CARTER Charles Unknown M 1909 London Australia Sydney


They don't show as accompanying, so possibly they met on board.

Ah. I had the other thrread still open when I came in this morning, clicked to refresh it, and it was gone. So I searched and found this.

Did you find Kimberly in 1881 yet? In case not (remember -- just search 1881 for occupation equestrian and he's there):


Name: George Kimberly
Age: 47
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1834
Relation: Visitor
Where born: Birmingham

Condition as to marriage: Widow
Occupation: Equestrian Comedian (Performer)

Civil Parish: Northampton St Sepulchre
County/Island: Northamptonshire
Country: England

Street address: 21 Kerr St
Registration district: Northampton


So as I was saying in the other thread -- "equestrian" is a circus performer, and "equestrian comedian" will be a clown. ;)

Makes less sense than ever (entries in brackets are my comments)

What I have is:

Birth Certificate:
Marianne Ivy Elizabeth Kimberley born 25/1/1884, West Derby Municipal Lancaster.
Father - Alfred George Kimberley, Mother - Elizabeth Kimberley nee Dickinson
Occupation of father - Equestrian.
Address of informant A.G. Kimberley, father, 6 Marsden St, West Derby 8/2/1884.


(Have found marriage of MIE mother and father Elizabeth Dickinson and Alfred George Kimberley, June 1883 at Edmonton 3a 351 )



Death certificate:
Mariann Ivy Elizabeth Carter 12 Mar 1947 Aged 63
(Date of birth calculated to 1884)
Name of father - Joseph Kimberley
Occupation of father - Circus clown
mothers maiden name marianne surname not listed.
Informant CE Carter Widower (gives same address as last address of MIE etc)
Where born Liverpool, England
Time in Colony/State: 38 years in NSW
Place married London, England.
Age at marriage 25.
Spouse: -Charles Edward Carter (Married)
Children of Marriage: (have put in the dates of birth calculated from ages on the death certificate):
Nellie M. 36 (1911) Albert E. 35 (1912), Walter 33 (1914), Mabel G. 32 (1915), Elsie J. 30 (1917), George A. 27(1920), Beatrice IC 25, (1922) Shirley V. 22 (1925), Royal C. 20 (1927).


Marriage Transcription (Nellie is Charles and Mariann's eldest daughter)
Nellie Myra Carter and John Blair Gallaher (probably Gallagher) 26 Dec 1931.
Age 21 (may have done some rounding up to be of age)
Usual Residence Tahmoor
Father Charles Carter
Mother ivy Kimbley
occupation Father - Poultry Farmer.

Marriage Certificates for both Walter Carter and Mabel Grace Carter and their respective spouses. (Certificates which I have queried with NSW BDM and had verified)

Walter married in 1937
Name of father Charles Edward Carter
Occupation of father: Poultry farmer
Name of mother Ivy Elizabeth Kimberly

Mabel Grace married in 1934
Name of father Charles Edward Carter
Occupation of father: Farmer
Name of Mother: Ivy Elizabeth Kimberly

(Marianne Ivy Elizabeth Carter,Royal Charles Carter, Charles Edward Carter are all buried in the same area of the Eastern Suburbs Cemetery, along with Mabel Grace's infant son Robert).

(I know Charles Edward died in 1962. Aged 86. Date of birth therefore 1876. Info on his death reference lists unknown father and mother as Anna)

ALL OF THE ABOVE MAKES SENSE. NICE SMOOTH POOL OF GENETIC INFORMATION. REMEMBER I DO NOT HAVE PARENTS FOR CHARLES CARTER OR A MARRIAGE FOR HIM AND MIE KIMBERLEY.

Let's chuck a brick into the water.

From St Marks Church of England Church records Picton (Tahmoor)

I have the following information. I will summarize. Two children Beatrice and Shirley, no date of birth born to Marian Jean Elizabeth and Charles Edward Carter.
Four children Mabel, Elsie, George, Walter, all with correct dates of birth born to Mary Ivy Elizabeth and Charles Edward Carter.
(Nellie, Albert and Royal are missing from the list).

Occupation of father in all cases Poultry Farmer.

!!!!!!!!!!! This next bit.....

(Suggestion has been made from at least two sources that the following is the same Charles Carter)

Marriage Transcription from NSW BDM (via excellent transcription agent)
Date Married 2 Dec 1920
Groom: Charles Carter
Status Bachelor
Birthplace Leeds, England
Occupation Clerk
Age 37 (date of birth would be 1883)
Father: William Thomas Carter (Deceased)
Mother Margaret Noble Stewart
Occupation of father Coal merchant

Bride: Ivy May McCarthy Spinster
Birthplace Cooma NSW
Age 26. Father Michael Mccarthy, mother Minnie Shaefer. etc etc.

With every scrap of what's left of my brain i can not work out how Charles Edward Carter could marry Ivy May McCarthy in 1920, at the time of the birth of the 6th child on Mariann's death certificate, list all nine children on her death certificate if they were not all hers and his, change his occupation from a farmer to a clerk, take 7 years off his age, still live at the same address as his first "wife" Mariann Ivy Elizabeth Carter, be the informant at her death and be buried next to her when he died 15 years after her death.

Buuuuuut then again it does sound like something a bloke would do!

So that's it. The next task. Death certificate for Charles Edward Carter, birth certificates for the youngest Carters, Beatrice, Shirley and Royal. Check death of Ivy May McCarthy and get her certificate.

I am ready to believe that these are two different Charles Carters. However with my new found caution I will wait till I get the certificates.

Oh yes. And, find where Mariann Ivy Elizabeth Kimberley married Charles Edward Carter and then travelled to Australia in time for their first child Nellie to be born in 1911.

I still think Glockinsplock is a nice name. Val

RESTARTING THREAD- Today is Friday 20 Mar 2009.

Picks up corner of mat and sweeps old information under it. Stands up, stretches, smiles and starts again.

First step - restart old thread.

Hi, My name is Aunty. I am currently researching my OH's family history. Looking at the Carter/Kimberley names. England to Australia.

I have just lost my ongoing thread. Not clever enough to know how I managed to do that.

I could not imagine that the devil had a hand in it, and the other bloke is far too busy, so it has to be my fault.

No, I haven't lost all your hard work and information. I printed off the first two and a bit screens the other day (10 pages of info, suggestions, hints etc). Just lost the last bit. Yeah , sorry EvieBeavie lost that bit where you asked me "WHAT!!"

I did go back and search in the correct place and found all the Kimberley names. Found Mariann Ivy Elizabeth Kimberley's parents marriage. So much easier with MIE's birth certificate.

Received some more transcripts this afternoon. Opens more doors and slams others closed.

Be back soon.

Val

Something good did at least come out of today then.

Add freebmd to your favorites if you haven't already done so

Hang on a minute Val.

That Charles Edward Carter married 1907 Fulham.


now you have found the name, you need to click on the number in Red at the end, to go to the page

Charles edward did indeed marry in 1907 in Fulham, but he married either
LEES Nellie or
THISELTON Valerie Rosa
-----------------------------

had you found Marianne Ivy Elizabeth Kimberley on that page, then yes, you'd have found the marriage, as it is i dont think you have.

Hi JustVal, Im in Kent and we have an excellent archives centre here where we are allowed to use computers free of charge..even Ances....is free....maybe worth checking your area for such a facility? anyway good luck in your search.

I've found Charles Edward Carter Marriage 1907 Fulham. Death Certificate MIE Carter says she was married in London. I've worked out that Fulham is closest to London of all the choices. Volume page is 1a 812. Which won't tell me anything other than CE Carter was married at that time and place.

I have CE Carter and MIE Carter, nee Kimberley burial details. I have estimated the time line of events based on the transcript of death certificate for MIE Carter (Kimberley).

should do - I have been having a look I cant see them for looking, so if you are paying for credits hold fire.

I cannot even see her marrying Mr carter!

Thank you. Census will show occupation of father won't it?