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Re the 1910 marriage.

There are no Carter-Abraham births 1911 onward.

There are four Dwyer-Abraham births, although they are in Derbyshire/Staffordshire, but no other potential Dwyer-Abraham marriage 1890 onward. So it looks like the missing bride belongs to that Charles Edward Carter.

IGI

HANNAH MARIA GREEN
Birth: 01 APR 1836
Christening: 18 JUN 1837 St Bride Fleet St, London, London, England
Father: GEORGE ARTHUR GREEN
Mother: HANNAH MARIA
Batch No.: C022427

1851


Name: Hannah M Green
(who became Hannah M Carter, mother of Charles Edward Carter)
Age: 14
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1837
Relation: Daughter
Mother's Name: Hannah M
Gender: Female
Where born: St Brides, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: St Bride
County/Island: Middlesex

Hannah M Green 44 (already widowed)
Hannah M Green 14
William H Green 10
George Green 10
Hance A Green 70
Emily Grace Green 4
Jane Leach 65


1841:

Civil Parish: St Bride and Precinct

George Green 33
Hannah Green 34
Hannah Green 5
Julia Green 3
William Green 1
George Green 1



So yup. Elizabeth Ann Bassenger who married Charles Edward Carter was sharing quarters with CEC's maternal grandmother in 1881.

People had to meet somehow before they married!

There could be a family connection, of course.

Moving on --

"Did Charles mother, or grandmother with the same name, live in the same house as Elizabeth Bassenger who Charles married."

I'd guess grandmother, if she's 62 in 1881. Lemme look around ...

What's all this brouhaha?

Last things first. Searched for surname Kim* married Jun Q 1910. No what's-er-name.

Looked at original GRO image for Kim* for Jun Q 1910. Not there.

Looked at the whole list for Kingston for Jun Q 1910. Seached down the list for Mar and for Eliz and for Iv -- nobody who looks like her. Paid particular attention to the ones with indications of transcription problems. Nope. Looked at the image for this one:

CLARK Elsie Kingston 2a 78[5_]

It is indeed 785. Searched by page no. w/o vol. no. for that quarter. No luck.

Away you go. Order the marriage certificate.

Who knows? Maybe Charles had a totally different second wife before leaving England. Maybe that one is a different Charles. Only one way to find out!

May I scream. Please please.

Looking at things which match and don't make sense.

Have certificates.
Birth, Charles Edward Carter 4th February 1876, 168 High St, West Sunderland, Durham.
Father: James Carter
Mother; Hannah Maria Carter (nee Green)
Occupation of father: Outfitter

Have marriage certificate:
6th Dec 1896
Charles Edward Carter aged 23, which puts his date of birth 1873 (?1876)
Elizabeth Ann Bassenger aged 26 (dob 1870)

Rank profession: Able Seaman RN
Father: Charles is James Carter
Rank profession of father: rope maker!!
Father Elizabeth: Harry Bassenger occup. brewer

Marriage solemnized in St Lukes Church parish of Victoria Docks in the county West Ham & Essex.
Witness to marriage Sarah bassenger.


Did an 1881 census Bassenger search and came up with:

Martha BASSENGER Lodger (Head) M Female 40 Limehouse, Middlesex, England Tailoress

Elizh. BASSENGER Lodger Daur Female 16 Limehouse, Middlesex, England Domestic Serv

Cha. BASSENGER Lodger Son Male 14 Limehouse, Middlesex, England Errand Boy

Hannah GREEN Lodger W Female 62 Poplar, Middlesex, England Tailoress

Also found 1901 census address search

Hannah Carter, Pauper inmate, widow F. age 61. Birth year 1840 occupation tailoress.

What am I looking at;

Did Charles mother, or grandmother with the same name, live in the same house as Elizabeth Bassenger who Charles married. If Elizabeth Bassenger was 16 in 1881 she would have been born in 1865 making her 31 when she married Charles.

There were 26 Charles Carters born in 1876. This birth certificate gives that as his date of birth. The marriage certificate calculates the dob as 1873 . Unless of course he lied about his aged because in 1896 when he married he would have been 20.

I am still waiting for more info from national Archives re a Charles Carter.

Now please tell me what I am looking at. Or at what I am looking.


Sorry forgot. Tried to find death for Elizabeth Carter. Oh there are plenty of them but none which match her age on her marriage certificate or give Charles as her spouse.

But her age on her marriage certificate may be incorrect. She may have been anywhere up to 6 y ears older. Oh damn, strewth, pickled onions. I have to go back and search those stupid old book things again.


Edit, edit. Have death. Elizabeth Ann Carter March 1905 Sunderland. Reference 10a 434.

Just found marriage page
Place Kingston (which after google mapping turns out to be near London Middlesex as well as other places) Ref 2a 786 Date June 1910
Three names (yes only three) on the page

ABRAHAM Winifred
CARTER Charles Edward
DWYER Beresford (or force) (can't read the scribble)

Why only 3 names!!? Would need to look at 1911 census to see if Winifred and Mr Dwyer are together.

Hi EvieB, I'm still here. Just spent an hour updating my virus scanner. It sort of got mucked up. I'm allowed to have a really good one on my home computer because of work. Couldn't find it. The nice help line people fixed the problem.

Re the circus clown bit. You have hit the nail right on the head. Our children are still paying out their dad for being descendent from a circus clown. When I first received the certificate I just took one look at him and said. "Well this really explains everything!" I'm sure he'll be dining out on the story for years to come.

I think I have at least three certificates to come including the ones for CE Carter's birth. I know you disagree but I still have a niggle that somewhere we will find his marriage to Mariann Kimberley. I wish that woman hadn't kept on changing her name all the time. And no I haven't forgotten that we apparently have her on board the boat coming to Australia as a Miss Kimberley. Unless of course there were two with similar names!!

I need some sleep now. I'll start fresh tomorrow. And no I don't think I'm finished yet. This is just getting interesting. What happened to the circus folk?? Why have all these people disappeared from the 1901 census?? What happened to CE Carters siblings? What will a search of ships coming to Aust in 1910 show. I've only done up to 1909. I still have my subscription to use for that. Where did CE and MIE meet up to be called Mr and Mrs Carter??
Oh goodnight. I'll start on someting else in a minute and never get to bed. Val

Oh, it's a sleepless night again, I'm giddy ...

I was just reading back through, and got to the transcript of the reg of MIE (Kimberley) Carter's death, where it says

Occupation of father - Circus clown

and just imagined how it must have felt reading that.

*Oh good. My great-whatever grandfather was Bozo.*
All this work, and I'm descended from Bozo ... I think I'll go back to bed ...

I'm in uncontrollable guffaws.


Oops, he's your dearest's gr-whatever grandfather, not yours, is it? Well there you are. You may mock him.

I reckon I'm a clever girl. Of course!

I forget where it started ... I think I was just skimming down a page of 50 results of a search for Charles Carter-s ... and I saw "Hannah" in the list of mothers ... and it went ding.

Of course the big question is: he was married for some 13 or some such years before going to Australia. (You do need that marriage certificate still. You didn't think you were finished?) So ... apart from whether he was still married all the time he was in Australia and what happened to his wife ... did he leave kids in England?

Your mission, should you choose to accept it ...

Hi, I think I'm back. Oh no, you all groan. Yep! Reburbished computer as well, twice as fast, half as dangerous. Still looking for all my email, inbox, address list which had disappeared during the upgrade. It's there somewhere. Oh heavens I hope it's there.

OK, in our last episode I agreed to agree with conclusive conclusions in the absence of other information. More certificates have arrived. The end result being I have two additional pieces of information.

I now have CE Carter's Death certificate: I'll abbreviate the headings.
Name: Charles Edward Carter
Occup: Seaman (pls note: EvieB)
Age 86 years.
Died: 25 Apr 1962 Lidcombe NSW etc
Where born: Unknown England (Yikes, good start)
Length reside Aust: 52 years (ah ha date arrived 1910)
Name father: Unknown Carter (very informative)
Occup: Ropemaker (first clue and I think it's there in the census!!)
Name mother: Anna Green (second clue)
Where married: Unknown England (doing well aren't we)
At what age: 33 years (if he was 52 yrs in Aust, was born in 1876, should have been married in 1909)
To whom: Marion Elizabeth (Unknown)
Conjugal cond time death (Nothing written)
Issue: George, Mrs Bird, Mrs Armour, None Deceased. (ages not given)

And it goes on with the rest of the info about what, who, where buried etc.

Issue: George was the 6th child, Mrs Bird we think was Elsie, Mrs Armour was Shirley. No mention of Nellie, Albert, Walter, Mabel, Beatrice, Roy.

Informant for the certificate was the Assistant Manager of the Lidcombe State Hospital and Home.

Next bit of Info is NSW BDM result of search marriage for Charles Edward Carter. Between 1900 and 1919 no trace can be found of registration of his marriage to any person.

I also have marriage certificate Charles Carter and Ivy May McCarthy, married 2 Dec 1920. His age at time of marriage was 37. This gives him a date of birth of 1883. His place of birth was Leeds England, his mother and father we have already worked out as William Carter and Margaret Noble Stewart. Occupation of this Charles Carter, Clerk. I think I can rules him out as being my Charles Carter. However in the interests of truth justice and accuracy I have a requested a search for her death certificate with emphasis on children's names.

So there you have it. I've a heap of sorting to do to make this 'puter look like I own it.

Oh heavens I have just had a thought. Just remembered something. Lookeee at the marriages Jun 1863.

Evie, it's on the print out of the old thread.

CARTER James Mile End 1c 1005
GREEN Hannah Mary Mile End 1c 1005

Hannah - Anna Green
Waddayoureckonyouclevergirl!!!

OK. I'll go along with your theories. I'll apply for the 1896 marriage certificate. I have Charles death certificate coming which probably won't give me more info than what we already know.

I keep wondering if in 1924 the children decided to take their father's name and they were all baptised as a result. Although a naming ceremony is usually only the given names of the child. Nope they were all registered in birth with the Carter name. Their marriage certificates all bear the Carter name. I suppose they would have called themselves Carter without regard for the fact that mum and dad were not married. Well not so far as is recorded in the BDM index.

Will now wait for the certificates and any other info the powers that be allow me to have.

And thanks, I don't disbelieve you, just have trouble putting it all together when it is contrary to what we thought was the story based on up until now known facts. Val

You just haven't learned yet that I'm always right and I never lie!

Charles Edward Carter born 1876 in Sunderland, mother Hannah, occupation leading seaman in 1901.

Fits all your specs.

Married in 1896. In the 1901 census. Not detectable in the 1911 census.

Possibly never married Ivy because of pre-existing marriage.

Lots and lots and lots of people lied about being married. Divorce was not accessible to most people. Moving to Australia and starting over worked for them.

The 1896 marriage certificate could provide useful info (to confirm he is the Charles Edward son of Hannah and James).

Children baptised as a batch -- not hugely uncommon. I haven't figured out why my gr-grfather and his younger siblings were baptised as a batch in the 1850s, and their older siblings weren't -- and one of the older ones was, obviously in comtemplation of death, at about age 26, after about 18 yrs (months - 18 months, not years, duh) of marriage.

Possibly some new leniency was being shown to unmarried parents for baptising their children. That would fit with my theory. ;)

Have found MIE coming to Australia, as you said, single in 1909 aged 25. All matches. So why is she supposed to have married in London aged 25 in 1909. Interesting.

Could not find Charles Carter on the same ship - Marathon.

Have him coming to Australia in (I think) Aug 1909 on the Osterley.

Have found George Kimberly by his occupation in the census.

Can not find Alfred on the 1881 or 1891 census.

I know FreeBDM is free but what is the best census source. I'm finding that sometimes I don't get the same matches on Free BDM. Shouldn't happen should it??I have a "voyages" subs on FMP, which lasts until April. The downside about that is it only goes from 1890. I have other lines of the family that I'll be searching as soon as I've put Charles in his right spot.

Have put in a request for an answer about Charles Carter's campaign stars and medals. The one born in Sunderland. Expalined why I wanted the info. Hopefully they will hurry up.

Spent half the day searching. Now know what Charles and MIE did not do. They did not marry in New South Wales Australia. I searched from 1900 to 1947 with "Carter", "Kimberley" as separate searches, then "Carter and Kimberley" as joint searches. No one of that name married the other name in that time. Then searched every carter, every kimberley etc etc. No matches at all.

Re Ivy McCarthy. In the years between 1909 and 1920 there were 284 carter marriages, including 8 charles carters and 2 charles edward carters. Any of them would be a match. Don't understand the choice of Charles Carter and Ivy mcCarthy. Unless it is the first name.

Re-searched UK marriages again. Charles Edward Carter and Ivy, or Mariann, or Elizabeth Kimberley. Can see where I have previously searched.

One little item does bear more checking. Marriage in 1908 in Sunderland, reference 10a 843. Charles Edward Carter is on the page and also Elizabeth Jane "Kellie". OK so it's a long shot. Kellie, Kimberley. I can't make the page open into the scan to have a look at it. Edit: Nope disregard Elizabeth Kellie was born Dec 1873 so she exists.

Now there is another niggle. In my info from Picton/Tahmoor (the Church records) it gives the date of baptism for the children of Charles and MIE.

Remembering they were born commencing 1911 and concluding 1927. I don't know the details of Nellie and Albert but Shirley, Mabel, Elsie, George and Beatrice were all baptised on 17 Aug 1924. Walter was baptised on 4 May 1931.

Why such a delay between their births and baptisms?

had another conversation with OH with regard to CE Carter. OH is of the conviction that he was a chief petty officer, or held some rank in the Merchant Marine. That he served in the Merchant Marine in WW1. Based on the age at death 86, and date of birth 1876. CE Carter would ahve been 38 during WW1 and 63 in WW2. OH believes he was involved with the Queen Mary liner at some stage.

The children's wedding certificates have him as a farmer/poultry in 1931, 1934, 1937.

Ah ha. Interesting discovery. In 1945 Mabel Carter (daughter of CE and MIE) married again. I have her transcript. Name of father Charles Edward Carter, mother Ivy Kimma (sic). Occupation of father Night Watchman.

Kimma, incorrect spelling of Kimberley. End of the war CE Carter is now 69 and is doing his bit for the war effort as a night watchman.

Please note. Name of mother is not McCarthy. MIE Carter nee Kimberley died two years later in 1947. No that's not relevant because we know that MIE is Mabel's mother.

I'm about to give our National Archives a hurry up to release the info about Charles Edward Carter and his campaign medals.

That's right. By my theory, you're related to Kim. ;)


Marriages Dec 1896
> Bassenger Elizabeth Ann W Ham 4a 239
> CARTER Charles Edward W. Ham 4a 239
RODEN Sarah Elliot W.Ham 4a 239
SAUNDERS Richard West Ham 4a 239


1901

Name: Charles Carter
Age: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1874
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Elizabeth A
Where born: Sunderland, Durham, England

Occupation: Leading Seaman H.M.S.

Name: Elizabeth A Carter
Age: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1877
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Charles
Where born: Limehouse, London, England

Civil Parish: West Ham
County/Island: Essex

Charles Carter 27
Elizabeth A Carter 24


Trying to determine whether that Elizabeth died before 1909/1911 ... good luck.

You may have missed my edit to add Ivy May McCarthy Carter's death: 1978 (phew, just under the wire for online data).

I hope you aren't reproducing the Charles Edward Carter son of Hannah stuff that I did manage to find again ...

But -- if you do have his marriage and him in the later census where I'm pretty sure he had a seafaring occupation.


Now, here's an idea.

Charles and Ivy married on board ship.

Or, like, they didn't marry. Because Charles already was. (Not that a lot of married people didn't go to Australia and marry again anyhow. The uncle of my weird gr-grfather's sister's husband had wives in Wales, Chile, NSW and England, at least two at a time.)

Will go back through the paper work to find the Charles and Hannah you are talking about. Fairly certain I saw the info there yesterday.

I have to go. I have to take my aged body to a fitness class this morning and do more damage to my muscles and bones. Woman should know when to give up. I'll catch you later.

You know how much I appreciate your help. Val

This was him -- you had your Charles's place of birth somewhere and it matches? as does the DOB:

Births Mar 1876
Carter Charles Edward Sunderland 10a 719


Yeesh. Mother was "Hannah M" in 1881.


Name: Charles E. Carter
Age: 3
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1878
Relation: Son
Father's Name: James
Mother's Name: Hannah M.
Where born: Sunderland

Civil Parish: Bromley St Leonard
County/Island: London
Street address: 181 St Leonards St Fishmongers Shop
father = fishmonger


James Carter 42
Hannah M. Carter 41
Walter J. Carter 17 - ship's steward -- and you have a Walter
John T. Carter 16
Henrietta R. Carter 8
William H. Carter 4
Charles E. Carter 3
Emma A. Carter 1


1891

Name: Charles Edward Carter
Age: 15
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1876
Relation: Son
Father's Name: James
Mother's Name: Hannah Maria
Where born: Sunderland

Civil Parish: Westoe
County/Island: Durham
Registration district: South Shields

James Carter 53
Hannah Maria Carter 52
Walter James Carter 27 - general seaman
John Thomas Carter 25 - general seaman
Harriet Rosette Carter 18
William Hawkins Carter 16 - butcher's helper
Charles Edward Carter 15 - butcher
Alfred Budd Carter 13
Emma Amelia Carter 11

Our replies are crossing. Are you keeping up???

The bit about my disbelief. On MIE's death certificate. She died in 1947
Place of death Home of Peace Petersham marrickville. Late of 4 Ewenton Street Balmain.
Informant: CE Carter Widower, 4 Ewenton Street Balmain.
Spouse Charles Edward Carter (Married)

Place married London, England
Age at marriage. 25

That means she married in London in 1909. (on her death certificate)

That means that CE Carter was living at the same address as MIE Carter just before she died in 1947 and that he was the informant at her death.

As I said he was buried next to her in 1962, 16 years after she died.

Does that sound like a man who married another woman in 1920.

By the way when did Ivy McCarthy die????

Also I have the unshakeable conviction of Charles Edward Carter's grandson that his grandfather only had one wife and he can remember when she died in 1947.